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Post 20

Tuesday, January 16, 2007 - 9:20pmSanction this postReply
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Ed:

    The term 'sacrifice' was really bandied about the whole 1st hour of this season-starter. The terrorists praising the 'field' suiciders for their 'sacrifice'; the Prez' cabinet-guy arguing how Jack must be 'sacrificed'; the Prez and some CTU personnel telling Jack they know how much he's already 'sacrificed.' I swear there was some underlying purpose in almost over-using this term (beyond my examples) in the show, hinting at the idea itself being wrong-headed, regardless that there were different contexts-of-meaning (Rand's univocal meaning nwst.)

     Note that 'Jack' N-E-V-E-R used the term, nor, 'sfarasI'mconcerned, even thought in terms of 'sacrifice.'

LLAP
J:D


Post 21

Tuesday, January 16, 2007 - 9:31pmSanction this postReply
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Addendum:

     Jack's 'choice's be what they were, were limited to 'the devil and the deep blue:' dying-for-something vs dying-for-nothing. He chose to 'live' in enduring China's prison to avoid the latter; he was willing to accept preventing a terrorist nuke-risk (can we say he thought of Kim and Audrey, as well as some of his colleagues?) via accepting the former.

     'Sides: he got almost chronic in making it clear that now he's really tired of his accepted life-style...where he's always losing one's he loves/respects.

LLAP
J:D

P.S. R. Bidinotto did a great job re the 'ethics' of Jack, btw. Still, there are some nagging questions, ntl.


Post 22

Tuesday, January 16, 2007 - 9:51pmSanction this postReply
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"It's sometimes easy to lose context and run judgmentally-amok with a floating abstraction like "rational self-interest" but, without context, all meaning is lost." -Ed

Without a context such as your own knowledge of your own individual biologically given nature?

:)

Questions of crime arise within an existent and otherwise stable political society. When that society itself is threatened to its core, actions meant to preserve it are not matters for armchair second-guessing. Any man with testicles and a modicum of knowlede would act based on pre-existing premises and let himself be judged afterwards.

Should someone ever threaten Erica, would you act first? I sure as hell would. Damn the caveats, full steam ahead.

Ted

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Post 23

Tuesday, January 16, 2007 - 11:41pmSanction this postReply
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"It's sometimes easy to lose context and run judgmentally-amok with a floating abstraction like "rational self-interest" but, without context, all meaning is lost." -Ed

Without a context such as your own knowledge of your own individual biologically given nature?

:)

Ted, you shameless thread-hijacker. You apparently brazen fool. Don't you know that I'm fully willing to hijack my own threads in order to hammer a point home on an unsuspecting intellectual opponent?!?! Put up yer' dukes (I know you hate it when I "pepper" you with jib-jabs, but you're asking for it this time ... so let's go!) ...

Questions of crime arise within an existent and otherwise stable political society.
Ding-a-ling-a-ling (that's the bell, Ted, ready?). On ... the ... contrary, FORMAL questions of crime "arise" in "stable political society." Ahem, I'll take definition #2 for $500 please (m-w.com)! ...

===============
2 : a grave offense especially against morality
===============

The necessary and sufficient ingredients for crime are 2-fold ...

1) a violator
2) a victim

It's possible to violate another's rights -- even if you are the only 2 cast-aways on a desert island. It is not society, nor government, nor court-house that "generates" rights. Contrary to even the position of most otherwise-intelligent professional philosophers -- rights aren't ever given or taken away. See me for further details on this identifiable aspect of reality.

When that society itself is threatened to its core, actions meant to preserve it are not matters for armchair second-guessing. Any man with testicles and a modicum of knowled[g]e would act based on pre-existing premises and let himself be judged afterwards.
Right. There's ALWAYS pre-existing premises. This supports my point. It's part of what it is to be "human." For instance, there's always an implicit identification of fairness (observable in even very young children; even in children in African tribes unexposed to "civilization.") The gods must be crazy, huh? I mean, if I had a nickel for every coke bottle that fell from the sky ...

;-)

Here's more where THAT came from ...

Natural law and natural rights follow from the nature of man and the world. We have the right to defend ourselves and our property, because of the kind of animals that we are. True law derives from this right, not from the arbitrary power of the omnipotent state.

Natural law has objective, external existence. It follows from the ESS (evolutionary stable strategy) for the use of force that is natural for humans and similar animals. The ability to make moral judgments, the capacity to know good and evil, has immediate evolutionary benefits: just as the capacity to perceive three dimensionally tells me when I am standing on the edge of a cliff, so the capacity to know good and evil tells me if my companions are liable to cut my throat. It evolved in the same way, for the same straightforward and uncomplicated reasons, as our ability to throw rocks accurately.

Natural law is not some far away and long ago golden age myth imagined by Locke three hundred years ago, but a real and potent force in today's world, which still today forcibly constrains the lawless arrogance of government officials, as it did in Dade county very recently.

The scientific/ sociobiological/ game theoretic/ evolutionary definition: Natural law is, or follows from, an ESS for the use of force: Conduct which violates natural law is conduct such that, if a man were to use individual unorganized violence to prevent such conduct, or, in the absence of orderly society, use individual unorganized violence to punish such conduct, then such violence would not indicate that the person using such violence, (violence in accord with natural law) is a danger to a reasonable man. This definition is equivalent to the definition that comes from the game theory of iterated three or more player non zero sum games, applied to evolutionary theory. The idea of law, of actions being lawful or unlawful, has the emotional significance that it does have, because this ESS for the use of force is part of our nature.

Utilitarian and relativist philosophers demand that advocates of natural law produce a definition of natural law that is independent of the nature of man and the nature of the world. Since it is the very essence of natural law to reason from the nature of man and the nature of the world, to deduce “should” from “is”, we unsurprisingly fail to meet this standard.

The socialists attempted to remold human nature. Their failure is further evidence that the nature of man is universal and unchanging. Man is a rational animal, a social animal, a property owning animal, and a maker of things. He is social in the way that wolves and penguins are social, not social in the way that bees are social. The kind of society that is right for bees, a totalitarian society, is not right for people. In the language of sociobiology, humans are social, but not eusocial. Natural law follows from the nature of men, from the kind of animal that we are. We have the right to life, liberty and property, the right to defend ourselves against those who would rob, enslave, or kill us, because of the kind of animal that we are.

Law derives from our right to defend ourselves and our property, not from the power of the state. If law was merely whatever the state decreed, then the concepts of the rule of law and of legitimacy could not have the meaning that they plainly do have, the idea of actions being lawful and unlawful would not have the emotional significance that it does have. As Alkibiades argued, (Xenophon) if the Athenian assembly could decree whatever law it chose, then such laws were “not law, but merely force”. The Athenian assembly promptly proceeded to prove him right by issuing decrees that were clearly unlawful, and with the passage of time its decrees became more and more lawless.
And you can read the rest at ...

http://jim.com/rights.html

Should someone ever threaten Erica, would you act first?
Let me say it this way:
Should someone take physical action meant to harm or endanger Erica in any way, then I would very likely make it the most memorable day of his (or her) entire life-experience.

;-)

I can see the advertisement now:
Are you bored? Do you want a thrilling and thoroughly life-changing experience? Would you like to be able to forget your own past? Then just physically threaten Erica in front of Ed -- and you wouldn't BELIEVE in the kind of "results" you might get!!! Change is good. So act now, and make today the first day of the rest of your life!

;-)

Ed
[a shameless, but recovering, ex-vigilante]


Post 24

Tuesday, January 16, 2007 - 11:54pmSanction this postReply
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Addendum to previous rant:
Erica's would-be predator would then abruptly discover just why it is that they call me the 'Director of Outreach.'

;-)

Ed
[trained for 4 months as a Golden Gloves boxer]


Post 25

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 12:04amSanction this postReply
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My only problem with your above post is that there is no such thing as an offense against morality. Only against a person or persons, including oneself. You are reifying morality in a way that Rand sometimes did, and was either using shorthand or was being just plain wrong in doing so.

As for the desert island, rights arise within a political context. If you wish to define two people as a polity, then fine. But I usually reserve the term for when there is at least enough of a society to find an arbitrator. Two men on an island are either allies or at war, not the subjects of some self reifying state.

Ted

Post 26

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 12:24amSanction this postReply
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Ted,

My only problem with your above post is that there is no such thing as an offense against morality. Only against a person or persons, including oneself. You are reifying morality in a way that ...
No, I'm not. Yes, you can interpret the definition I chose (from merrium-webster online) thusly, but that is not very gratuitous (it's not fair) -- as it does not fit with my recap of what's needed for crime ...

The necessary and sufficient ingredients for crime are 2-fold ...

1) a violator
2) a victim
... which says just what you are saying -- and nothing more (and it was in MY OWN words).

If you wish to define two people as a polity, then fine. But I usually reserve the term for when there is at least enough of a society to find an arbitrator.
Fine. Arbitrator schmarbitrator. If you look intently at my posted quote from http://jim.com/rights.html, then you will see that rights precede societal organization. If you don't, you won't (and even most professional philosophers -- even some champions of objective philosophy -- get THAT aspect of reality wrong).

Ed 


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Post 27

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 7:27amSanction this postReply
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     The prob with necessitating an 'arbitrator' in a discussion of the source/meaning of rights, is that it implies the necessary assumptions of either
- 1) agreement by those in conflict that they abide by the arbitrator's decision [about who has what 'right' to what...which brings up its OWN questions as to what is the source of the arbitrator's idea of 'rights', or, o-t-other-h,  is s/he merely being 'arbitrary' in the decisions?]
or -2) If the conflicter's do not agree, then we must now talk about an arbitrator who's also an ENFORCER. This re-raises the 'rights' question, but now with 3 rather than 2.

LLAP
J:D

(Edited by John Dailey on 1/17, 7:29am)


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Post 28

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 7:39amSanction this postReply
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     A last question re this 'arbitrator' necessity in considering the source/meaning of 'rights':

     Did Spartacus have NO 'rights' to speak of, because the arbitrator of laws, justice, and 'rights', Rome, said so...and...ENFORCED it's decisions?

LLAP
J:D


Post 29

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 4:23pmSanction this postReply
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Oh Jesus Christ. If a violator and a victim are necessary and sufficient for a crime then there is a frigging crime wave going on amonst chimps in africa (and every goddamn species on earth) that makes actual human crime insignificant. Arbitrator Shmarbitrator? What is the point of my wasting time on such childish and poorly thought out nonsense? I said that I would expect that in order to call something a polity it would have to be big enough to have the possibility of an arbitrator. I never said that without an arbitrator there are no such things as rights. Congratulations on the sanctioningg of two posts that attack a straw man. And how does the fact that injustices have existed (Rome) within actual polities affect my statement in any way? This is so frigging concrete bound that I expect John thinks I think rights only exist where English or Latin (or its vocabulary) is spoken?

Rand herself said that rights exist within a political context. I am not one to quote the master, but if doing so ends all arguments, then so be it. There may be violence and agression outside a political context, and even outside a human context. To call such crime is to render the term crime meaningless. I expect more from objectivists than context dropping and juvenility.

G.U.

Ted
(Edited by Ted Keer
on 1/17, 4:25pm)


Post 30

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 4:53pmSanction this postReply
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Ted,

If a violator and a victim are necessary and sufficient for a crime then there is a frigging crime wave going on amonst chimps in africa (and every goddamn species on earth) that makes actual human crime insignificant.
No. Again, that's not what I meant and you have lacked gratuity in your assumption. Animals are NOT moral creatures. They do not exercise a capacity for conceptualization. They do not -- in the strict sense -- exercise volitional consciousness. They have a relatively piss-poor capacity for making crude associations (dogs beaten by uniformed men routinely growl at uniforms), but that's IT as far as integration goes. Yes, some non-human animals have better memories than man -- it's because, without the mental economy afforded by the use of concepts, that's all that they've got to go on (their current perceptions, their memories, and their crude associations -- ie. perceptual powers of awareness).

I expect more from objectivists than context dropping and juvenility.
Well, I may be the one being the most juvenile in this current exchange but -- as I just showed above, rather than merely stating it -- YOU are the one dropping the context here. The reason that I brought up the James A. Donald link, is to try and get some real conjecture-refutation going. Ted, I'd be quite interested in your reactions to ANY of these propositions of Mr. Donald's (numbered for reference or attempted refutation)...

1)  Natural law has objective, external existence.

2)  ... use of force that is natural for humans ...

3)  The ability to make moral judgments, the capacity to know good and evil ...

4)  ... the false conclusion that one cannot reach objectively true conclusions about matters of morality and law ...

5)  Rulers who act lawlessly ... should be killed as the opportunity presents, like the dangerous animals that they are, the common enemies of all mankind.

6)  ... natural law is universal, applying to all free men at all times and all places.

7)  It precedes religions and kings both in time and in authority.

8)  As Hugo Grotius pointed out ... even if there was no God, or if God was unreasonable or evil, natural law would still have moral force, and men would still spontaneously back it with physical force.

9) ... natural law is the ESS (Evolutionary Stable Strategy) for the use of force, employed by our species ... applied by us by means of reason ...

Ed


Post 31

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 5:01pmSanction this postReply
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... Or a comment on THIS (a little more relevant to the discussion of Jack Bauer now) ...

http://www.jim.com/moralfac.htm

A proof that moral judgments, when done correctly, are judgments of objective fact

Suppose we wish to enter into a contract with one of two men, either Bob or Dave. Both Bob and Dave have in the past broken a major promise, though under very different circumstances, both Bob and Dave have killed a man, though under very different circumstances. We need to decide which one is most likely to keep his word and least likely to harm us.

Bob promised to do certain things in return for a large sum of money. He failed to do the things he promised, and he later killed the person who gave him the money in a surprise attack.

Dave promised to do certain things, in return for not having his arms and legs broken. He failed to do the things he promised, and he later killed the person who threatened him in a surprise attack.

Obviously we should contract with Dave, not with Bob. But why is it obvious? How do we know this? How can we know it? How are we capable of knowing it?

Dave's actions were different from Bob's actions because Dave's actions were morally different from Bob's actions.

Consciously or unconsciously we evaluated the actions of Bob and Dave, and concluded that Bob's actions were gravely evil, and therefore were a sign that he was likely to do similarly evil things in future. Dave's actions were not gravely evil. The issue was not killing or breaking promises, but wrongful killing and breaking of promises. We concluded that Dave's actions were different from Bob's actions because they were morally different.


In correctly concluding that Bob's actions were morally different from Dave's actions and that therefore we should contract with Dave, we consciously or unconsciously used various principles of natural law

(I am using the phrase “natural law” in the sense that Thomas Aquinas and John Locke used it natural rights and obligations — that law which is rightly enforceable in a state of nature, not in the sense of physical law ...
Among the principles of natural law that we used, consciously or unconsciously, were that contracts should be honored, but that a contract should be for value or it is no contract - that coercion is wrong, but that self defense is right. If someone arbitrarily assumed different principles of natural law, he would make incorrect predictions about people's behavior; he would be less accurate when he attempted to predict the future behavior of Bob and Dave. If someone arbitrarily assumed incorrect principles of natural law, he would be making incorrect assumptions about the nature of man.

We can easily and correctly infer moral truths from facts about the world, and can easily and correctly infer facts about the world from moral truths. Everyone does this all the time, and those who claim it is impossible to do this, do it as much as anyone else.

To predict the behavior of inanimate objects we use, consciously or subconsciously, a theory of such objects. To predict the behavior of other men, we use, consciously or subconsciously, a theory of mind.

Such a theory must contain the categories of good and evil. A theory without these categories will fail to predict other people's behavior in precisely those cases where it is most important to us to predict their behavior.

Because any reasonably accurate theory of mind needs to employ these categories, and because deeds need to be attributed to these categories reasonably accurately, good and evil are true universals, just as “man” or “tiger” are true universals. It is possible to be wrong in our judgments. We need to make our judgments objectively correct. We can achieve judgments that are mostly accurate, though there is no simple mechanical rule for doing so. The fact that it is sometimes difficult to determine what is the true judgment is no reason to think that such judgments cannot be true or false.

To predict men's future conduct from their past conduct, we need to categorize their deeds, in order to say that one deed is like another and one deed is unlike another, to say that one person is like another and one person is unlike another. The most important category is moral.

In order to predict that conduct that is most important and most difficult to predict, we need to judge men and deeds as just or unjust, fair or unfair, good or bad.

Plainly therefore there exist correct and incorrect categorizations. The categories are not arbitrary. Arbitrary categories are not useful in predicting conduct. Correct categories are plainly useful in predicting conduct, and must be based on sound theories of men and the world, rather than arbitrarily created from nothing.

Ed




Post 32

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 7:10pmSanction this postReply
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I think we can drop this one, assuming you have no criticisms of my definitions. I did indeed criticize what you said, rather than what you meant. But I was told by someone that what you had "clobbered" me. I recognize natural law, which exists whetehr or not a state does. I recognize natural rights, which become political rights only within the context of a polity. I recognize that murder is not a good thing, but that the word "crime" has a meaning, and that outside of a polity (in international waters, for example) there may be good and evil, but there is no crime, (law-breaking,) since there is no state. I doubt we disagree here except on wording. For John Dailey to get four atlas icons over your and his attacking a straw man characterization of what I said seems worthy of an cry of exasperation on my part, no offense to Dailey.

Post 33

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 9:20pmSanction this postReply
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Ted,

I think we can drop this one, assuming you have no criticisms of my definitions.

Forgive my inanity, but could we REALLY just drop this -- if I couldn't feel comfortable moving forward until requesting of you to comment on THIS? ...

Because any reasonably accurate theory of mind needs to employ these categories, and because deeds need to be attributed to these categories reasonably accurately, good and evil are true universals, just as “man” or “tiger” are true universals.
Inquiring minds want to know.

I did indeed criticize what you said, rather than what you meant.
"Embedded" apology accepted.

But I was told by someone that what you had "clobbered" me.
Now THAT sounds like something that I WOULD SAY PERSONALLY TO YOU, Ted (you know, in a private email, or something like that?).

And Ted, I stand by the atlases that I gave to Joh ... [oops]

Moving on, now. Where were we? Crime. Crime, as I have heretofore defined it (for all to give rational ascent to -- or, if not, then to suffer my intended wrath) IS POSSIBLE WITH SOLELY A VIOLATOR AND A VICTIM. The essential characteristic of crime is rights violation, and if rights are something you had before a legislative body WROTE DOWN that you have them -- then crime is possible before written law, too (it's possible before the inception of a city-state).

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 1/17, 9:21pm)


Post 34

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 9:30pmSanction this postReply
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Good and evil are indeed concepts, but not universals in exactly the same way as man and tiger, since the later are concepts of entities, the first of relations or evaluations.

I didn't quote you as having said anything to me.

You said "necessary and sufficient" in regards to violator and victim (and here I am quoting you) and I "clobbered" you with a counterexample. Now you retreat to possible solely - i.e., only necessary.

As for whether something is a crime until it is outlawed? You and I would propbably agree on molst of the things that should be crimes. We would both say that they should be because they violate natural rights. I think unwritten law is a bad idea. I do seem to remember someone somewhetre saying that a theory of criminal law is still an open matter within Objectivism.

And now, even if you accuse ME of being the one who set of the bomb in L.A., I will comment no further on this thread.

Ted

Post 35

Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 9:40amSanction this postReply
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Ted,

You said "necessary and sufficient" in regards to violator and victim (and here I am quoting you) and I "clobbered" you with a counterexample. Now you retreat to possible solely - i.e., only necessary.
Get this. The very term "violator" implies morality (ie. it implies an interaction of beings of voitional, rational consciousness).

Quit dropping the context in order to make me look bad, Ted -- that's rude of you.

Ed


Post 36

Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 9:56amSanction this postReply
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Ed - Liked your posts here!

Post 37

Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 3:34pmSanction this postReply
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     I ask a simple question, to be sure, carefully framed in terms of a 'large enough polity', (re my Spartacus question; if Rome wasn't 'large enough' what the hell is?), and I get diatribed over my earlier disagreeing comments re an 'arbitrator' being necessary (re meaning about 'rights') in a conflict 'twixt Crusoe and Friday, else 'rights' supposedly have no meaning. Sheesh! --- (I notice that my Rome-Spartacus question was totally ignored, for some reason, in the responses to my 2 posts.)
LLAP
J:D


Post 38

Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 3:46pmSanction this postReply
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     Btw: if we're going to 'quote Rand', let's be sure to start at the beginning of when she 1st identifies/defines her source-meaning of 'rights': "Rights are conditions of existence required by man's nature for his proper survival...any group, any gang, any nation [can one not include 'any person' here?] that attempts to negate man's rights is wrong, which means: is evil, which means: is anti-life." --- We're not talking 'polity', politics, nor even 'ethics' ('till the last, re 'group'); we're talking metaphysics fundamentals identifications.
 

LLAP
J:D

(Edited by John Dailey on 1/18, 4:01pm)


Post 39

Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 3:51pmSanction this postReply
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      To end this clarification re 'Rand's quotes', it's not till later that Rand gets into talking in terms of 'ethics', and THEN 'politics'...er...'polity', re a context-shifted meaning of rights. Besides, to talk about an 'arbitrator' without talking about an 'enforcer' seems a bit moot, all said and done.

     Fwiw, earlier she stated: "--the source of man's rights is not divine law, or congressional law..." ---> Can we add in some arbitrator-cum-enforcer's 'law' in the Objectivst meaning here?

LLAP
J:D

P.S: Ted: sorry you REALLY dis-liked my reasons for disagreeing with you.

(Edited by John Dailey on 1/18, 3:53pm)


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