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Post 40

Tuesday, August 3, 2004 - 11:44amSanction this postReply
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Bill,

I suppose I would take your disgust at this a little more seriously if you two had been similarly disgusted when Leninz and his troops made the same comparisons when Mr. Stolyarov and others (such as myself) had the temerity to suggest traditional sexual mores weren't a bad thing.

I'm honestly not sure what you are referring to here. The only time I recall seeing Mr Stolyarov referred to as a Stalinist it was pretty clearly meant tounge in cheek. Seems something may have slipped my attention - do you have a link?

MH


Post 41

Tuesday, August 3, 2004 - 1:05pmSanction this postReply
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Greetings.

 

First, I would like to thank Mr. Tingley, Mr. Schad, Mr. Bisno, and Mr. Cordero for their reasoned attempts in the resolution of this situation and in the honest expression of their opinions.

 

I will try to be brief here, for I do not wish to detract too greatly from the constructive discussions in which I am engaged. However, I take to heart Rand’s statement concerning the triumf of uncontested absurdities, which then come to tacitly permeate the mindsets of the more impressionable and less informed among us. Thus, I see it in my self-interest to dispute the vulgar and stereotypical attacks heaped upon me by Mr. Perigo and his foot soldiers (Lamont, Beck, and Pritchard being prime examples).

 

As for comparing Mr. Perigo’s post to a Communist Party brief against dissenters, I have lived in the Soviet Union during its milder last days; the Soviet Union was not all murder and outright barbarism. Nevertheless, even after its collapse, a multitude of arguments was presented by Communist sympathizers to justify the persecution and ostracism of the unlike-minded. Even in Soviet and post-Soviet kindergartens, those kids who thought that children (8-10 years old) should not have been drafted by the Red Army during the Russian Civil War were put in corners and reported to their parents as “mentally unstable troublemakers.” I recall being diagnosed by a Soviet pediatrician (at the age of three) as being “problematic” because I learned to read far ahead of the majority of children of my age (who usually could only half-mouth syllables at the age of seven, when they entered elementary school). Any difference, in convictions, abilities, and, especially, style, of any sort, including clothing (any kid who despised wearing the short shorts of the time was scrutinized as “abnormal”), hygienic habits (such as the unwillingness of kindergarten children to use communal toilets), and verbal expression (there was a slogan-esque twist put on every expression; anyone who deviated from it and spoke with “dispassion” was considered “antisocial.”)

 

I have demonstrated what I am talking about without resorting to argumentum ad experientiam, though I have in fact experienced the Soviet Union as it really was in its daily existence. When I see Perigo using the words he does (“pathological” being the worst of them), to condemn people for precisely the differences that should be their virtues, I recall the pure evil that I encountered in the USSR and that destroyed any “innocence of childhood” that I could ever have had.  

 

I will finish this later.

I am
G. Stolyarov II
Atlas Count 917Atlas Count 917Atlas Count 917Atlas Count 917




Post 42

Tuesday, August 3, 2004 - 1:58pmSanction this postReply
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"Either he is irrational or he has bought into the leftist identity politics that equates Mr. Stolyarov's traditionalism to oppression."

Oooh! OOooH! False dichotomy! FALSE DICHOTOMY!!!

Post 43

Tuesday, August 3, 2004 - 2:13pmSanction this postReply
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Bill,

"antinomian sexuality" is a straw man, and you know it. no one, no one, on this board has proposed anything along the lines of 'anything goes' sexual hedonism. no one has proposed that there are no rules of sexuality. all that anyone has proposed is that the currently existing social mores in regards to this subject are flawed. also, regarding your charges of "identity politics" I suggest you define your terms that we may examine the premise. I want to know precisely what you have in mind when you use this here-- as we certainly dont see anything along the lines of what is traditionally called such in here.

Post 44

Tuesday, August 3, 2004 - 2:24pmSanction this postReply
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Hi, Matt.
 
>>The only time I recall seeing Mr Stolyarov referred to as a Stalinist it was pretty clearly meant tounge in cheek. Seems something may have slipped my attention - do you have a link?<<
 
No, only my memory of not taking such barbs as seriously as you and Chris have in defense of Leninz.  But it's nice to know you would have been similarly bothered had you been aware of them.
 
Regards,
Bill


Post 45

Tuesday, August 3, 2004 - 2:26pmSanction this postReply
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Greetings, Mr. Stolyarov.
 
>>I would like to thank Mr. Tingley ...<<
 
You're welcome.
 
Regards,
Bill


Post 46

Tuesday, August 3, 2004 - 2:29pmSanction this postReply
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Hi, Scott.
 
Me: >>Either [Leninz] is irrational or he has bought into the leftist identity politics that equates Mr. Stolyarov's traditionalism to oppression.<<

You: >>Oooh! OOooH! False dichotomy! FALSE DICHOTOMY!!!<<

 
Well, if you have determined this, then you must know what the rational reason is for Leninz being horrified by Mr. Stolyarov's position on euthanasia.  If there is a rational reason, I certainly would like to have my mistake corrected and offer the appropriate apology to Leninz.
 
Regards,
Bill




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Post 47

Tuesday, August 3, 2004 - 2:40pmSanction this postReply
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Sheeeeech!!! Why don't you guys all SHUT UP and just ignore and not reply to those whom you disagree with on this subject. Nothing is being resolved and it just leads to ill-feeling.

Mr. Stolyarov will remain — nobody's kicking him out and all the detractors can disagree with him in a civil fashion for this articles or comments.

GROW UP.


Post 48

Tuesday, August 3, 2004 - 2:51pmSanction this postReply
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bill,

"Well, if you have determined this, then you must know what the rational reason is for Leninz being horrified by Mr. Stolyarov's position on euthanasia."

you specifically focus on the word horrified as being significant. however, we must consider that the source of this quote is a person who very much likes the techniques of exaggeration and strong language. perhaps Linz meant the word much less seriously than it is now being taken?

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Post 49

Tuesday, August 3, 2004 - 3:04pmSanction this postReply
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Hi, Robert.
 
>>"antinomian sexuality" is a straw man, and you know it. no one, no one, on this board has proposed anything along the lines of 'anything goes' sexual hedonism. no one has proposed that there are no rules of sexuality.<<
 
It's not a straw man.  You may be right that no one here has explicitly advocated hedonism, although I wouldn't bet on it.  However, it is a fact that those who have most vociferously opposed Mr. Stolyarov's arguments in favor of traditional sexual mores have not offered an objective set of rules regarding human sexuality.
 
The best that has been offered by his opponents is:  If it's consensual it's moral.  I think the problem they have in going beyond that is how to determine the morality of abnormal sexual conduct -- for instance, homosexuality.  In the name of tolerance, they evade judgment.  Mind you, that evasion is not a horrible thing.  At least it is in the service of keeping their noses out of other people's intimate affairs.
 
The problem is when a person whose preference for the abnormal sexuality takes his prediliction out of its proper intimate context and puts it out for the public to examine.  At that point two things about that person, assuming we choose not to ignore him, are legitimately available for judgment.  First is his abnormal tastes in sex; and second (and more important) is his desire to make such a private matter known publicly.
 
Why shouldn't we judge one who wants to be identified in terms of his sexual predilictions?  It's odd to say the least, and it's not unreasonable for us to draw unflattering conclusions about such behavior -- especially when it becomes harnessed to a political agenda.  Hence, my raising the issue of identity politics.
 
I hope that clarifies for you how I have been using "antinomian sexuality" and "identity politics" in this thread.
 
Regards,
Bill


Post 50

Tuesday, August 3, 2004 - 3:07pmSanction this postReply
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Hi, Robert.
 
>>perhaps Linz meant the word much less seriously than it is now being taken?<<
 
You may be right, but I do pay Leninz the respect that he means what he says.
 
Regards,
Bill


Post 51

Tuesday, August 3, 2004 - 3:08pmSanction this postReply
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Greetings.

 

This will likely be my final post on this thread, as I see little point in protracting this "hearing." To conclude w.r.t. the Soviet Union reference, SOLO and Mr. Perigo do not equal The Soviet Union; I merely wished to point out that the arguments and words used by Mr. Perigo in his brief are eerily reminiscent of the arguments and words I had directly encountered as well as extensively read about during my childhood in the Soviet Union. My comparison was more of a warning than a direct equation, though I am greatly displeased at Mr. Perigo's language, more even than at his message.

 

As for the fact that we belong to two distinct organizations, I see nothing wrong with acknowledging this fact. Why not merely have stated: "Mr. Stolyarov's organization, The Rational Argumentator, and SOLO, often hold diverging views, even though at other times our views may coincide. What Mr. Stolyarov writes should not be automatically taken as SOLO's position on any given issue, though he and SOLO are also in agreement on certain issues." This would have been civil and I would not have objected to it. But calling a man "pathological" is the absolute worst insult anyone can direct toward a survivor of the Soviet Union, especially one who fled its ruins to escape a horrific past.

 

I am personally willing to advertise the fact of our two organizations' separateness by incorporating a link to The Rational Argumentator in my signature.

 

Now, concerning my style (though, what it has to do with advertising someone else's works in a store, I know not):

 

  • I believe that form must follow function, always. In this regard, I am the Howard Roark of writing. No form is automatically off limits, and no a priori criteria (or other people's tastes) can determine what does or does not constitute good writing. Rather, the specific goals of a given piece should set the standards. (This means that any general requirements concerning length, format, structure, thesis location, and word simplicity/complexity are absolutely arbitrary and unwarranted.)  
  • Many issues are so extremely complex, and common mistakes made concerning them so extremely subtle, that only a highly technical and precise use of words is able to distinguish precisely what one seeks to talk about, and how this differs from what one seeks to refute or differentiate oneself from.
  • The task of filosofy is discovery as often as it is communication, and the more advanced, technical, and intellectually exacting realms have also been less often explored than the simpler, more rudimentary, more basically communicable ones. Thus, the potential for new discovery in these realms is far greater. (This does not mean, however, that the errors made in these advanced realms are less frequent or less important than more easily communicable mistakes! Quite the opposite is in fact the case.) Not every one of my works is aimed for a general audience, just like not every one of a scientist's papers is. A filosofer, in my opinion, must become increasingly like a scientist rather than a demagogue (this is necessary for filosofy to be recognized as a foundational science and a necessary complement to mathematics). A filosofer needs to work not only to communicate his present enlightenment to the masses (though, doubtless, this is important, and I have not excluded myself from such a task) but also to expand the horizons of his own and his specialist colleagues' knowledge. This means that dense, technical, ornate writing that is indeed somewhat reminiscent of a formulation of mathematics or fysics is precisely the sort of writing that fellow filosofers should direct at each other. If laymen understand it, more power to them. If they do not, at the early stages of their introduction to filosofy, this is not a requirement for them. If they are sufficiently interested and persistent, they will be up to the challenge eventually.

 

I should someday write a treatise on the necessity of formality as a tool in speech and writing, though this should not be taken as condemnation of all forms of informality. Style can only be judged as proper and improper within the context of a given work and its intended purpose, not within the context even as large as an individual. (There are, of course, some stylistic elements that are never appropriate, such as obscenities and expletives; you can build a house from brick, stone, or steel, but never garbage.)

 

A final note on the Ayn Rand Lexicon: Ayn Rand did not write it in entirety (which does not deny that it is valuable in some respects). Rather, it was "begun under Ayn Rand's personal supervision." (http://rous.redbarn.org/objectivism/bib/lexicon.html) It was published in the 1990s, not in Rand's lifetime, and its true author is its editor, one, Dr. Harry Binswanger of the ARI. It may contain certain excerpts from Rand's articles and writing, but there is no guarantee given that the passages on abortion, etc. actually came from any previously published Rand article. (Her personal journals and word-of-mouth statements, never intended for publication, do not count, just like my statements about preferring apple juice to grapefruit juice should not be taken by future Stolyarovians to imply a mandatory filosofical disdain for grapefruit juice.)  Thus, I still hold that positions on abortion, euthanasia, and marriage are negligible w.r.t. Rand's original Objectivism, and any position on these issues is acceptable for an Objectivist so long as he can consistently deduce it from the fundamentals. 

 

I am
G. Stolyarov I
I

Editor-in-Chief, The Rational Argumentator

Proprietor, The Rational Argumentator Online Store

Author, Eden against the Colossus


Atlas Count 917Atlas Count 917Atlas Count 917Atlas Count 917


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Post 52

Tuesday, August 3, 2004 - 3:33pmSanction this postReply
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" (There are, of course, some stylistic elements that are never appropriate, such as obscenities and expletives; you can build a house from brick, stone, or steel, but never garbage.)"

suppose I write a treatise on the evils of communism. assume it is very clear, very cogent, extremely well reasoned and persuasive. however, on page 241 of this text, the phrase "fucking collectivist swine", or some similar manner of epithet, appears. if the epithet I listed as an example isnt very convincing, feel free to think up a better one. but suppose that this epithet ir right there, on page 241. to what extent, if any, is the rest of the text invalidated or weakened? or perhaps it is fitting to say that obscene people deserve to be named with obscene words?

Post 53

Tuesday, August 3, 2004 - 3:50pmSanction this postReply
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Greetings.

In answer to Mr. Bisno (which I think I can comfortably provide, as it has no direct relevance to the original subject of this thread, which I offered to lay aside):

I have encountered a very similar situation in reviewing a book of an acquaintance of mine. I thought the book was valuable in its insights, and provided an original perspective on many issues. However, I also mentioned to its author that the occasional vulgar obscenities employed in its weaken its point and its intellectual character. I additionally advised him that such words suggest an author's conventionality and susceptibility to stereotypical expressions. If one wishes to express extreme dislike or displeasure with someone/thing, original terminology, of a fairly complex degree, demonstrates one's ability to dislike independently, far better than socially prevalent smears and swears. It is far more effective to be seen as the clever intellectual orator using the best of rhetorical skills to point out the depravity of what he condemns, rather than as a part of the sidewalk-spitting, mischief-wreaking rabble who curse every which way.

For an interesting connection to this: Have you read Cyrano de Bergerac's response to the insult that his nose was "rather large"? Cyrano proceeded to name twenty far more creative and individualistic ways in which the offending party could have expressed itself!


I am
G. Stolyarov I
I

Editor-in-Chief, The Rational Argumentator

Proprietor, The Rational Argumentator Online Store

Author, Eden against the Colossus


Atlas Count 917Atlas Count 917Atlas Count 917Atlas Count 917


Post 54

Tuesday, August 3, 2004 - 4:48pmSanction this postReply
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Bill,
No, only my memory of not taking such barbs as seriously as you and Chris have in defense of Leninz.  But it's nice to know you would have been similarly bothered had you been aware of them
I have endeavoured to behave justly toward all concerned throughout this thread (as I indeed do in general behaviour). So, if I have taken the barbs on this thread too seriously then I do apologise. I must say however that it was not at all clear to me (nor I suspect to other posters) from the context in which the remarks were made that they were intended "tounge in cheek".

Mr Stolyarov,

I for one am glad that you will continue to contribute here. As I mentioned in my initial post to this thread, I have found value in some of your work, despite my strong disagreement with many of your other positions. 

To no one in particular,

I have said this before and I suspect it will make little difference that I say it again here - while I do accept that strong words will sometimes be used during passionate debate (and while genuinely tounge in cheek "nudges" are a separate matter), I do personally think it best to try and avoid the use of unjustified insults. They do nothing to further the debate and tend to create personal animosity amongst people who, disagreements aside, may have something to gain from each other. I can not praise Barbara Branden highly enough for her comments on this in response to Lindsay's recent article on anger.

MH


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Post 55

Tuesday, August 3, 2004 - 6:50pmSanction this postReply
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Rat,
Of COURSE it is rational to be horrified by Stolyarov's condemnation of voluntary euthanasia. Stolyarov's argument is that an individual should be forbidden to make a contract to voluntarily have his life ended. This is inconsistent with individual rights. It is tyranny, it is oppression, it is the initiation of force.

SOLO is an organisation, with a unique identity. However, many of the participants on SOLOHQ seem to view it as just another Objectivist forum.

It's not. It's different. SOLO is about sense of life, about rational passion, passionate reason. By distancing SOLO from Stolyarov, Linz and Joe have acted to defend that identity. In fact, their actions are incredibly *tolerant*, given the length of time Stolyarov has been on this forum - all that time offering views inconsistent with Objectivism and SOLO's ideals - and in his insults of Lindsay, the founder of SOLO, labelling him a fanatic and comparing him to Leonard Peikoff. And yet, he hasn't been banned.

WRT antinomianism:
Objectivism was never 'nomian' in the first place. It's about principles, not laws. There are no 'commandents'. But no-one here advocates the absence of morality, in sex or anything else.

You accuse us of a 'leftist, nihilist' criticism of 'traditional sexual mores'. Well, Objectivism is closer to the left than the religious right on many issues, but that doesn't make Objectivist positions nihilist, or leftist. Being traditional doesn't make something good, and traditional sexual mores frequently are more harmful than good. Is there an alternative? Of course! It's called being rational. You consider the consequences of your actions, and your rational self-interest, and you make decisions accordingly. That's individualism, that's reason. If you mindlessly follow religious dogma, or just whatever is 'traditional' in your culture - that's irrational.

Phil



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Post 56

Tuesday, August 3, 2004 - 7:40pmSanction this postReply
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actually, it says where the passages came from:

the first 2 paragraphs on abortion are from The Objectivist, the next 1 is from The Ayn Rand letter, and the rest are from The Objectivist Forum (which may have been spoken, but the first 3 are written).

the marraige paragraph came from her playboy interview, and, like i already said, even though this was spoken instead of written, she had a great deal to do with editing the interview, so if she hadn't approved, it would be changed.

here's a link to the first 2 paragraphs on abortion:

http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=objectivism_faq#obj_q5

Post 57

Wednesday, August 4, 2004 - 3:32amSanction this postReply
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GS:
I recall being diagnosed by a Soviet pediatrician (at the age of three) as being “problematic” because I learned to read far ahead of the majority of children of my age (who usually could only half-mouth syllables at the age of seven, when they entered elementary school). Any difference, in convictions, abilities, and, especially, style, of any sort, including clothing (any kid who despised wearing the short shorts of the time was scrutinized as “abnormal”), hygienic habits (such as the unwillingness of kindergarten children to use communal toilets), and verbal expression (there was a slogan-esque twist put on every expression; anyone who deviated from it and spoke with “dispassion” was considered “antisocial.”)

Thanks for that GS. This is a very moving account of your childhood. It does help me to understand your mentality better. You have obviously come a long way since then to shake off your past, both psychologically and philosophically. Keep up the good work!


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Post 58

Wednesday, August 4, 2004 - 5:46amSanction this postReply
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Hi, Philip.
 
>>If you mindlessly follow religious dogma, or just whatever is 'traditional' in your culture - that's irrational.<<
 
Mindlessly following ANYTHING is irrational.  So have you seriously critiqued the mores of the Sexual Revolution that Objectivism appears to have imported?  Or do you accept them simply because they are firmly ensconced in our post-modern culture?  Do you follow an objective sexual morality that amounts to something more than what is consensual is moral?

Whether or not you agree with Stolyarov, he has made a detailed argument from Objectivist principles for his position.  I haven't seen the same from his detractors.  Instead, they have merely denounced him, as Leninz did with such flair here a few days ago (and today is backtracking to look as reasonable as possible).  So, if I am to conclude that Stolyarov's opponents are doing something other than mindlessly following the libertine dictates of the post-modern world, what is the essence of Objectivist sexual morality?

Regards,
Bill 


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Post 59

Wednesday, August 4, 2004 - 5:59amSanction this postReply
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Hi, Matt.
 
>>I have endeavoured to behave justly toward all concerned throughout this thread (as I indeed do in general behaviour). So, if I have taken the barbs on this thread too seriously then I do apologise. I must say however that it was not at all clear to me (nor I suspect to other posters) from the context in which the remarks were made that they were intended "tounge in cheek".<<
 
You have ALWAYS been a gentleman in this forum, Matt, and no apology from you to me is called for.  First of all, I apologize to you for my smarmy response suggesting you were a hypocrite.  You aren't.
 
Second, while I was being humorous regarding "Leninz", I was also trying to make a serious point.  The grand poo-bah of SOLO is not an ogre, but the more I read of him, the more I come to the realization that he is a man of the Left.  I think he is in the vanguard of a movement to import into Objectivism the Left's social agenda.  This should concern Objectivists, but that is ultimately their business, I suppose.
 
However, so long as it suits me, I'll continue to report and you decide.  If you think I have my head up my ass, by all means call me on it -- as you did in this thread.
 
Regards,
Bill


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