About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadBack one pagePage 0Page 1Page 2Forward one pageLast Page


Post 20

Sunday, November 21, 2004 - 11:19amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Thanx everyone, for the reviews!

My ex and I are going out to see the movie this week.

<smooch>

Jeanie


Post 21

Sunday, November 21, 2004 - 11:25amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
"And while his methods were surely grotesque, his ambitions weren't all that sinister. Wanting to make everyone a superhero with science and technology isn't necessarily an egalitarian goal. So I wasn't sure what to think about the villain."

Andrew, I haven't seen the movie yet, but you might be interested in a similar theme from the comics. In a famous issue of Superman called "Must There Be A Superman?", Superman is confronted with the possibility that his actions may not be helpful, but actually hurting his adopted homeworld, because instead of inspiring others to his level, they instead become dependent on him to solve their problems for them, and at one point, he "shrugs," and tells them they need to start doing for themselves.

There is another Superman story where Superman discovers "The Fourth World," a world of superpowered beings similar to himself. He sees some kids playing, and one falls. Superman rushes to save her, but she can fly and doesn't need saving! She laughs at him affectionately like he is a child trying to save a god...

So there could be a reverse argument, that the superhero is, maybe not a villain, but misguided because they foster a sense of dependency in their protectorate. At best, it's a case of not wanting the baby bird to fly away, leaving an empty nest of purpose for the hero, at worst, it's similar to the villain of Rand's short story where the philanthropist cripples his family with his "charity."




Post 22

Sunday, November 21, 2004 - 11:38amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Here is another take on the egalitarian issue, as presented in MARVELS, a view of the Marvel universe through the eyes of a reported. The reported is having a conversation with J.Jonah Jameson, the editor of the Daily Bugle. This is the same editor who hates Spiderman, calling him a menace. Usually he is presented as one dimensional, his hatred never explained, but here we get a glimpse of his psychology:

Phil: "You've recently written articles accusing Spiderman of kidnapping...and of proving himself 'yellow' by not stopping a crime wave...So how can you exhort Spiderman to act, by calling him a coward, but when he does act, you label him a criminal?"

Jameson: "Phil, if he WAS a hero-if your 'marvels' were truly the noble, selfless crusaders they claim...how could the rest of us measure up? How could we meet that standard?"

Phil reflects to himself,
"Was that what it was? Jealousy? We were so awed by the marvels that we had to grind them down-turn them into something we could hire and fire at will?

Post 23

Sunday, November 21, 2004 - 1:15pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I saw this movie today and I loved it! As Stan Lee would say, "Nuff said!"

Post 24

Sunday, November 21, 2004 - 3:47pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Thanks for the interesting posts, Joe. I have a couple of friends who love comics and are thinking of making their own comic book once they graduate from college. This will make some excellent food for conversation.

Post 25

Sunday, November 21, 2004 - 5:29pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Joe,

J. Jonah Jameson's jealousy of Spider-man was first explained in Amazing Spider-man #10, March, 1964, by Stan Lee and Steve Ditko.

 On the cover was the blurb, "IN THIS ISSUE: LEARN WHY J. JONAH JAMESON REALLY HATES SPIDER-MAN!"

On the final story page appeared this monologue by Jameson, "Am I always to be thwarted, embarrassed, frustrated by Spider-man?? I hate that costumed freak more than I've ever hated anyone before! I'll never be contented while he's free! All my life I've been interested in only one thing--making money! And yet, Spider-man risks his life day after day with no thought of reward! If a man like him is good--is a hero--then what am I?? I can never respect myself while he lives! Spider-man represents everything that I'm not! He's brave, powerful and unselfish! The truth is, I envy him! I, J. Jonah Jameson--millionaire, man of the world, civic leader--I'd give everything I own to be the man that he is! But I can never climb to his level! So all that remains for me is--to try to tear him down--because, heaven help me--I'm jealous of him!"


Sanction: 3, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 3, No Sanction: 0
Post 26

Sunday, November 21, 2004 - 6:56pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I took my son to see "The Incredibles" this afternoon. Enjoyed it very much. Thanks Andrew for the recommendation.

I also feel that the villain storyline in the movie is rather contrived. Like most other superhero movies, they always like to have a brilliant but evil or psychotic scientist/inventors as the villain. Why is that? Is it because of some irrational fear originated from early industrial age?


Post 27

Sunday, November 21, 2004 - 7:17pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Bob, thanks for the referance! Missed that one, and it does fit well with the Marvels story.

Hong, you are correct, the evil scientist came to prominence in the early 1900's. There was an anti-intellectual streak in America (GET A HORSE!). The original Lex Luthor, before being cast as a robber baron businessman, was an evil scientist (meddling in things man was not meant to meddle in...). Many monsters were the result of radiation and atomic testing, like Godzilla...Dr. Silvana was the enemy of Captain Marvel, whose powers were supernatural. I think there is still a remnant of this attitude in the opponents of cloning, who seem to think in comic book terms about the dangers of clones...

Post 28

Monday, November 22, 2004 - 7:35amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I simply loved the Incredibles. It is the best movie I have seen all year, and the best animated movie I have ever seen. That includes both Shreks and just about every other one, too (Ice Age, Antz, etc., etc.). It makes me sick to my stomach to see the hate-mongering in response to such a wonderful and fun accmplishment.

Post 29

Monday, November 22, 2004 - 10:12amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Joe:
I think there is still a remnant of this attitude in the opponents of cloning, who seem to think in comic book terms about the dangers of clones...
I definitely agree. The scientific inventions I can think of that can be used for evil purposes are nuclear and biological weapons. These are all very complex in application and are tightly regulated. Today's scientific research and technological development are never done in isolation or by tightly knotted closed groups. Such villains in movies are quite outdated, in my opinion.


Post 30

Monday, November 22, 2004 - 3:25pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I just saw the movie myself on Saturday and I could not read any disapproval of technology. After all, didn't Edna Mode (who I swear has to be caricature of Ayn Rand done with admiration) have to use some pretty sophisticated technology to create those supersuits? Needless to say, I loved this movie. I will own it the minute it comes out on DVD (which should take a while, the movie's a hit :)

Adam

Post 31

Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - 8:41amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
***SPOILER ALERT***

Adam! Holy Smokes! I think you're right! I think it was a caricature of Rand!

I hadn't thought it through that far, but my "confirmation bias" is in the red now - after you brought it up. From her overall looks, to her incessant drive to "do or create" (which she expected of others as well), to her extension-cigarette (am I just hallucinating this last part? Didn't she HAVE an extension-cigarette? - I forget the real name for such).

Ed

Post 32

Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - 10:13amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Adam and Ed,

Edna Mode was clearly based on famous Hollywood costume designer Edith Head, though it did very much make me think of Ayn Rand, as well. Perhaps the creators meant it to be both. We'll have to defer to them for final say.

Also, I did not think the creators were technology bashing in their work. Even villains, especially great villains, have to embrace some rationality if they are to be successful in their destructive efforts.

(Edited by Bob Palin on 11/24, 4:26am)


Post 33

Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - 10:49amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I was reading People magazine and they had a blurb about Edna Mode (the pic does look a little Randish)...They were talking about how people think they know who she is..."Oh, she's Coco Chanel," "oh, she's Edith Head,"etc. and the creators claim she's a composite of many people...she certainly seems to be an archetype! But since Rand was friendly with Adrian and such, maybe their's a connection?

Post 34

Wednesday, November 24, 2004 - 2:18amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
David Kelley has written an excellent commentary on this topic, which can be read at TOC's website.

I raised the issue of "The Incredibles"' treatment of technology because science and inventiveness are--excepting a few brief moments with Edna Mode--unique to the film's villain. When Syndrome promises to give everyone superpowers and cackles, "When everyone is special, no one will be," it seems like the film's creators are saying that the superheroes' greatness (and superiority) ought to be enjoyed by birthright. It almost reminds me of the debates over genetic engineering; we ought not improve the genes of children in the womb, so we are told, because "diversity" (i.e., having some people with crooked teeth, poor eyesight, and congenital diseases) is part of the human experience.

At any rate, I admit that this is a nitpicking critique of an excellent movie, one that has shot straight to the top of my list of "DVDs to buy." It would certainly be difficult to create an effective villain without technological prowess, especially one suited to this movie's comic book style.


Post 35

Friday, November 26, 2004 - 6:23amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Joe wrote:
I was reading People magazine...
Hmm, I just noticed that this particular issue of People has their annual poll of Sexiest Men Alive...  Is that what you are really after? ohmy.gif 


Post 36

Friday, November 26, 2004 - 9:35amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Weeeeelllll....I was waiting to get my hair cut, and it was on the bench, and no one was looking...

Post 37

Friday, November 26, 2004 - 12:13pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

I raised the issue of "The Incredibles"' treatment of technology because science and inventiveness are--excepting a few brief moments with Edna Mode--unique to the film's villain.


Well, Mr. Incredible had some pretty high-tech equipment to help him chase down criminals and such in the opening sequence as well.

Post 38

Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 2:26pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Althought this is an rather old topic and probably closed, I wanted to post this, because "The Incredibles" has just been hitting German cinemas. Therefore, I haven't been able to see the movie earlier.

I want to comment on the Syndrome and evil-scientist plot, because I don't think that science is portrayed as evil. You could present Edna as the productive citizens of Randian magnitude, while Syndrome is a recreation of a genius, who lacks the moral abilities of the Randian hero. It is perhaps an example of dissecting technical genius from morality and to show what an egalitarian genius would look like.

Also, I don't think that Bob's boss really represents the evil business man, because insurance-service wouldn't be the best representation of an evil capitalist, because he just was a middle-shot who liked to exercise his small powers on other human beings. He liked to treat his inferiors with hatred and malice and reminded me a bit of Mr. Taggart from Atlas Shrugged. But perhaps, I am completely lost here ;)


Post 39

Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 3:16pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
No topic is ever closed. Please, everyone, revive old threads at will.

Post to this threadBack one pagePage 0Page 1Page 2Forward one pageLast Page


User ID Password or create a free account.