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Post 0

Monday, March 7, 2005 - 12:30pmSanction this postReply
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Well I'm surprised NEM Regina Iannolo isn't the first to comment.  So I will. :-)

I'm pleased to see this in the news.  Seems like this topic is gaining more and more prevalence, which can only be a good thing. 

Jason


Post 1

Monday, March 7, 2005 - 12:50pmSanction this postReply
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Neither does it surprise me. I actually know vegetarians (not vegans though) who cook meat (fish and chicken) for their children - their view is to let the kids decide when they're older. Now if only we could convince parents to keep their kids out of church!

Post 2

Monday, March 7, 2005 - 4:58pmSanction this postReply
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Having just arrived home after benching 90 kg at the gym, I can’t help but wonder what might have been if I had not been raised a vegetarian :-) However before I start wondering, I think i’ll wait until I see the study replicated in a first world country. (No offence intended to Kenya).

Julian
SOLO Vegetarian Leader

(Edited by Julian Darby
on 3/08, 1:39am)


Post 3

Monday, March 7, 2005 - 5:39pmSanction this postReply
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Julian, is there a vegetarian forum here? You are tagged as vegetarian leader or did you just make that up?  I have no problem with vegetarianism, I think of it as a personal choice and harmless if done correctly. Its just not my thing. I do find disturbing the anti-vegetarianism tone I've seen here and at ARI.

katdaddy
sizzling flesh leader and resident faghag


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Post 4

Monday, March 7, 2005 - 7:07pmSanction this postReply
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Well Julian, as a meat-eater I was benching 265 lb (120 kg) in high school, and I only weighed 150 lb at the time.

Well I'm off to go fry some pork.


Shayne
SOLO Anti-Vegetarian Leader


Post 5

Monday, March 7, 2005 - 7:51pmSanction this postReply
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Hey Julian,

Not sure if you're new to the site or just haven't been around in awhile, but if it's the former, welcome!  (And if the latter, welcome back!)  I'm curious for your reasons for being vegetarian; being the self-styled leader and all I hope you won't mind sharing. :-) 

I don't think one can properly condemn vegetarians outright; the context of their personal decision must be considered, then evaluated as based on true or false premises.  Personally, my own limited research into nutrition has made me to seriously doubt the claims of vegetarianism as healthy. 

Ms. katdaddy faghag - I suspect - though I'm not certain - that the disdain for vegetarianism we see on this site has to do with the fact that it's often based on the idea of "animal rights" or on junk science - as much of "environmentalism" is.  Though I do fear a certain "baby/bathwater" scenario whereby Objectivists refuse to consider valid concerns because of the taint of anti-science on which many claims are based.   It seems superfluous to say it, but the best approach has got to be to research nutrition and physiology and decide for oneself what's good for the body and bad.

Jason


Post 6

Monday, March 7, 2005 - 8:37pmSanction this postReply
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It's interesting to discover this thread, as I've just spent the evening with chefs and farmers talking about local sustainability and restaurants sourcing from Hudson Valley (NY) farms.

One of the meat purveyors was a reformed vegetarian.  She explained that it was not the principle of animal rights that kept her from eating meat, but rather the pathetic quality of meats she was seeing at the supermarket.  Her husband was a vegan.

They are now both happy carnivores, and are sourcing some of the most wonderful meats and poultry in New York State.

There is hope for you rabbit food eaters, after all.  ;)

Education is the key to all of this, and I cannot stress it enough.  People must be taught what it is they are eating, sans the PETA-inspired horror files and other B.S. thrown into the media.  For those who think foie gras is duck torture, they should take the time to see the process first-hand instead of relying on PETA's information.

There will be more on this in the next issue of Gastronomic Meditations, which is going up later this week.  Time to fight back.


Post 7

Tuesday, March 8, 2005 - 3:50amSanction this postReply
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There is nothing wrong to eat no meat, because you want to make a diet (if you really need to do it Oo), or because meat actually doesn't fit your taste. But I think you shouldn't embrace the emblem of a Vegetarian, because this is already hijacked by PETA-activists.

I myself don't like crulty towards animals and whenever I see someone doing it, I try to interfer, but still I don't support something called Animal Rights. I just think that someone who is unnecessarily cruel to animals, can't be any more sensitive towards humans (Emphasis on unnecessarily).
For example, I also don't like the Jewish religious habit of "Kosha" flesh (typo?!), which is an unnecessary cruel deed in order to please some "superior" doctrine.


Post 8

Tuesday, March 8, 2005 - 6:24amSanction this postReply
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I was wondering when Regina was going to pop up on this thread!  About time!  Looking forward to your elaboration in GM. And if I haven't said it before, it's an excellent site!

Jason


Post 9

Tuesday, March 8, 2005 - 5:52amSanction this postReply
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I am sorry to disappoint you Shayne, but the post of “SOLO Anti-Vegetarian leader” has already been assumed by Mr Joseph Rowlands. I think you will admit that his credentials are quite impressive. :-)

Jason said
"I don't think one can properly condemn vegetarians outright..."

I agree and would hope that this was self-evident. That it is not might reflect the fact that the term “Vegetarian” has been hijacked by those advocates of “animal rights” amongst others. The unfortunate thing is that this hijacking has lead to people who are otherwise highly intelligent being mislead about what the term “vegetarianism” actually means, similar to how the terms libertarian, liberal, liberty and rights have been hijacked by various low life maggots.

Vegetarianism is the absence of meat, fish, and poultry in one’s diet. There is nothing evil, immoral, or irrational here. If one uses “animal rights” as the justification for vegetarianism, then game on. I will not stand in your way. I choose a vegetarian diet because I enjoy the food, the variety and the health benefits which I consider result from this choice. It is quite simple (although Lindsay has been known to testify to my being somewhat undernourished).

If our objective is to enjoy life, then we should choose a diet which helps us achieve this happiness, that which sustains our lives and minimises the chance that ill health will be visited upon us. This requires effort. There are many vegetarians and non-vegetarians (including Objectivists) whose appearance might suggest health problems based on diet. While it is their business, it does indicate that maintaining one’s health, requires more than just the subscription to any vegetarian, non-vegetarian school.

It is intellectually dishonest to claim that vegetarianism is associated with ill-health. It is even worse to buy into the propaganda and rhetoric of those who wish to hijack the term “vegetarian” for purposes one can rightfully label as “evil”.

Now, back to my search for an Objectivist Vegetarian girlfriend. :-)

Julian

(Edited by Julian Darby
on 3/08, 7:35am)


Post 10

Tuesday, March 8, 2005 - 8:03amSanction this postReply
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Vegetarianism is the absence of meat, fish, and poultry in one’s diet. There is nothing evil, immoral, or irrational here. ... I choose a vegetarian diet because I enjoy the food, the variety and the health benefits which I consider result from this choice.
I suspect that your enjoyment is more a function of your premises in this instance than that your taste buds have an aversion to meat. Variety is not a reason to subtract an entire food group - it's a reason to include it. And I don't know of any proven health benefits to vegetarianism. (But of course there's evidence that cutting out hamburgers and replacing with stir-fry is going to be better...) On the contrary, I hear that vegetarians have to be particularly careful to supplement their diet because they aren't getting what they need from just the vegetables, which is evidence for the opposite conclusion.

Objectivism doesn't permit living your life by an arbitrary consideration, evidence is required. But of course you're not on the hook to give it to us, and I'm certainly no food expert, but on its face cutting out an entire food group strikes me as unreasonable.

Post 11

Tuesday, March 8, 2005 - 8:22amSanction this postReply
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Now, back to my search for an Objectivist Vegetarian girlfriend. :-)

Good luck with your quest. I am only aware of one other objectivist who is a vegetarian. He is a vegan in fact. It is an unusual combination, but if you start your objectivist vegetarian forum, you will find other veggie-o's. Try Yahoo, as I don't think they are likely to be here.


Post 12

Tuesday, March 8, 2005 - 8:59amSanction this postReply
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Thank you, Jason. :)

My absence is due, thankfully, to a thriving consulting practice and so many wonderful projects that I barely sleep anymore.

I did try, for three months of my early twenties, to adopt a vegan lifestyle. When my hair started falling out and my complexion turned gray, I suspected this method was not optimal. When I came down with mono, I made a big piece of steak.

I rarely meet a vegetarian or vegan who does not look gray and pasty (though Julian, you may very well be the exception), and I realize that my own bad experience was due to an improper substitute of vitamins to enrich what was missing from my diet.

Now, I cannot even fathom a departure from the realm of the omnivore. In fact, it is rather amusing to see the disdain that comes over the face of a chef who receives a request for a vegetarian meal. One of my clients had to prepare one the other night, and he was less than inspired. There are chefs, however, who go to great lengths to present vegetarian food at its very best.

Julian, I wish you luck in your quest -- I'll keep my eyes peeled. :)




Post 13

Thursday, April 14, 2005 - 11:12amSanction this postReply
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"Meatless Diets in Female Athletes: A Red Flag"
by Alvin R. Loosli, MD; Jaime S. Ruud, MS, RD
can be found here.


Post 14

Thursday, April 14, 2005 - 1:10pmSanction this postReply
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I do think that being a vegetarian is irrational. Human beings evolved to be omnivores. Our digestive systems, teeth, and the vitamins we are able to synthesize demonstrate this. It is very hard, if not completely impossible, to get all the required amino acids, fatty acids, vitamins, and protein required without eating meat or at least very good quality dairy. When there are no bad points to eating high quality meat, why should we not when it provides very easily so many healthy elements? (If you are still being duped by the FDA and their cronies who lied about saturated fat and cholesterol, see www.westonaprice.org to learn more)

Kelly

Post 15

Thursday, April 14, 2005 - 1:29pmSanction this postReply
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I wanted to add this link.

http://www.westonaprice.org/mythstruths/mtvegetarianism.html

Kelly

Post 16

Thursday, April 14, 2005 - 2:03pmSanction this postReply
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Good going, Kelly - the only thing, to me, that even a semi-vegetarian diet has going for it is that definitely there will be fiber in your diet....

Post 17

Thursday, April 14, 2005 - 2:22pmSanction this postReply
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No matter whether you eat meat or not, you should be eating veggies! Shame on you for not getting your fiber in! Go now and eat some salad!

Kelly

Post 18

Thursday, April 14, 2005 - 2:34pmSanction this postReply
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Oh my - me personally eat plenty of fiber - from whole grains in breads to nuts and berries, even p'nut butter on celery sticks :-) ....... is one of the reasons  can keep in shape and look years younger than age listed on driver's license ......

Post 19

Thursday, April 14, 2005 - 2:43pmSanction this postReply
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Good, you get a nutritional sanction from me! :) I get kind of excited about nutrition. I was especially thinking of my friend here on SOLO who never eats veggies and only eats meat. Are you listening, Aquinas? Listen to Uncle Robert! If you eat plenty of fiber, you will be hunk of the month for years to come!

Kelly

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