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Post 0

Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 10:21amSanction this postReply
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Looks like Bush's effort to force freedom on the people of Iraq failed. Why aren't I surprised?

Post 1

Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 10:43amSanction this postReply
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If that is indeed the final result, it is a disaster.  I hope it changes over the next few days, or that the Sunnis defeat it in October.  3 separate states does not look so bad in the face of this, at least 2 of them would be free of Sharia.

Post 2

Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 11:22amSanction this postReply
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How do you spell FAILURE.
(Edited by Steve Zarwulkoff on 8/24, 11:25am)


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Post 3

Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 11:31amSanction this postReply
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George W Bush

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Post 4

Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 11:58amSanction this postReply
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Maybe this outcome was what Bush had in mind all along. 

Apparently the previous Iraqi government wasn't cruel enough for him.

Heaven knows how much he has always thrived on cruelty, dating all the way back to his governorship of Texas.



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Post 5

Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 1:24pmSanction this postReply
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Celeste, are we talking about Bush executing murderers even though they were retarded?

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Post 6

Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 1:31pmSanction this postReply
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Hmmmm. What surprises me is that everyone (for which, read 'mainstream observers') are surprised about Islam being touted as a source of law by the Constitution. It's been in the Interim Constitution for many months - see my critique of that document here:

A Libertarian Critique of the Interim Constitution for Iraq

For what it's worth, I had high hopes for this endeavour. I saw it as a means of taking the fight directly to the Islamofascists on their own turf, and freeing the Iraqi people to form a democratic state that could be an ally in the War on Militant Islam.

Looks like the anti-freedom mentality is too strong in Iraq for them to sieze freedom after it's been handed to them on a plate by the Bush administration. Cretins.

Post 7

Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 1:56pmSanction this postReply
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Matthew writes:
>Celeste, are we talking about Bush executing murderers even though they were retarded?

Hi Matthew

I think the case that Celeste-Norcross-is-Orion-Reasoner is now pretty strong. And a quick skim of Mr Reasoner's most recent postings at The Autonomist forum include the startling theory that certain Soloists tried to arrange for Muslim extremists to kill him, and, in what appears to be Reasoner's final post there, that Reginald Firehammer has secretly "always been loyal to SOLO...".

Just FYI....;-)

- Daniel


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Post 8

Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 4:09pmSanction this postReply
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 Freedom comes to those who earn it - if it's handed to them, it is not earned, so not truly valued...

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Post 9

Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 4:39pmSanction this postReply
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Overall, Iraq is worse off than it was under Saddam, and it only cost tens of thousands of lives, Iraqi and American, and hundreds of billions of dollars worth of wealth.

I wonder why so many who should know better endorsed this horrendous government program?

Post 10

Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 4:48pmSanction this postReply
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Anthony-
I read in one of your profiles that "police statism" is one of your pet peeves.  So you believe that Iraq was better off under police statism?  You believe that Iraqi women were better off under Saddams rule?  You believe that the hundreds of thousands buried in mass graves and the living who constantly lived with that threat were better off?  You believe that governement censorship with brutal consequences was a better society?


Post 11

Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 5:11pmSanction this postReply
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I think his point was it's about to get much worse than it was under Sadam, not downplaying how bad Sadam actually was.  He was a little too self-obsessed to create a true islamic nightmare state... but think about who may be taking over.

---Landon


Post 12

Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 5:15pmSanction this postReply
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Landon-
I'm with you and I fully understand what could possibly arise.  That's why it pisses me off every time I hear Bush referring to "democracy" as the panacea for the evils in Iraq.


Post 13

Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 5:18pmSanction this postReply
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Jody, I couldn't agree more.

You give freedom of absolute majority rule to people who've always been affraid to have an opinion, and people who've been bullys for generations what else can you really expect.

---Landon


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Post 14

Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 6:52pmSanction this postReply
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The oil. America wants Iraq's oil. This is the viewpoint , and rightly so,that is touted by people who object to the war in Iraq (and whom may soon be objecting to the war in Iran). All this talk about Iraq being worse off than it was under Sadam - hello? Wakey, wakey (are you with me here Jody - I suspect that you are, Uncle Daniel and all), planting a (THE if you're an optimist) seed of democracy in the Middle East, where, and hoping, that the whole house of cards may come tumbling down is the main legacy. In short, Doctor W thought that it would be shades of Paris, 25 August, 1944. Oopsy-doo-whoops! Wrong call on the surface - but perhaps the right call in the History
to come. Time will...

Post 15

Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 7:02pmSanction this postReply
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Ah, uncle Daniel the vandal.

 The oil. America wants Iraq's oil. This is the viewpoint , and rightly so,
What evidence do you have that this is a war for oil?


Post 16

Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 7:52pmSanction this postReply
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Matthew,

Yes.  We're also talking about the same person who sent a 60 year-old grandmother to her death, for having shot the husband who had beaten her on numerous occasions, and against whom she had notified the police on several occasions.  He refused to pardon her and all other death row inmates while he was governor, but he did pardon only one person.  Do you know who that one person was, whose life Bush deigned worth saving?

It was Henry Lee Lucas, the serial killer with the biggest body count in the history of serial killers.  That was apparently the only person Bush pardoned while governor.  That was the one person whose life he judged worth saving.


Post 17

Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 7:56pmSanction this postReply
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If this is a war for oil, Saddam and Bin Laden want control of it just as much as Bush does.

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Post 18

Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 9:33pmSanction this postReply
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At the moment, I think Saddam is more preoccupied with not dropping the soap than he is with controlling Iraq's oil resources.

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Post 19

Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 9:40pmSanction this postReply
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Jody,

The overarching driver of American policy in the Middle East has always been oil, with support and sponsorship of Israel a close second.  The Cold War certainly complicated the picture as America's pragmatic policy of supporting (often unsavory) regimes to merely counterbalance Soviet satelite states was in full effect.  After the fall of communism, however, oil moved front and center.  Mind you, it's not so much the oil itself as it is the strategic control of the region.  The combined oil reserves of Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and the other smaller Arab nations are tremendous to say the least.  The biggest fear from America's point of view is all of that wealth falling under the control of a single Arab super-state: *Islamic or secular*. 

And if you think America is concerned about united a Arab nation, Israel is even more so.  As George Friedman of Stratfor brilliantly lays out here, Israel's very survival is predicated on keeping the Arab world in warring factions.  All the money and technology in the world would not change the fact that Israel is a tiny population compared to rest of the Muslim world, and it would eventually lose a war of attrition against a massive army from Pan-Arab mega state - especially one with nukes. 

Historical Case Studies

Nasser was the first leader in the region to try to aggressively unite the Arab World.  His regime was predominately secular, and he sought to modernize and industrialize Egypt and ultimately absorb all the other Arab countries from the Sinai Peninsula to the Persian Gulf.  He was not a Marxist, but he was a national socialist with a bent towards militarism and industrialism (much like European fascism).  Despite a brief merger with Syria forming the short-lived United Arab Republic, Nasser ultimately failed.  Sadat eventually took power and was much easier for America to control. 

Saddam and the Baathists were inspired by Nasser, and generally shared the same vision.  In an effort to stymie Iran's revolutionary momentum in the 1980's, America propped up Saddam to draw Iran into a long and costly war.  One of Saddam's stipulations in the agreement was that he could eventually grab Kuwait, and American diplomats basically implied that he could.   Saddam eventually decided to take matters into his own hands and invaded Kuwait, and made overtures that there would be a follow on invasion of Saudi Arabia.  This upset the balance of power in the region to the level where American intervention was deemed necessary, thus the first Gulf War.

Though many thought that the first Gulf War didn't go far enough, it was still a relatively bold gesture that was noticed throughout the Muslim world, in a highly negative light mostly.  Enter Osama bin Laden.  Bin Laden felt that the secular approach to uniting the Arab world was a failure.  His approach was (and is) to use Islam as the rallying cry for resistance against American influence in the region.  Bin Laden too wants to start a domino effect, and his greatest prize would be to topple the House of Saud and replace it something more truthful to Islam (as if it isn't Islamic enough already!).  Thus far, bin Laden has been a failure as not one American puppet regime has fallen as a result of his Jihad.  However, he is still a lethal threat that we underestimate at our peril.  I personally think he is a genius in some respects, albeit an evil one.

But hopefully you can begin to see the general equation, that which has guided American policy in the past and present in the Middle East:

Oil Wealth + United Arab State = possible super power rival and possible destruction of Israel

So while oil isn't the only factor in US policies, it is certainly a major one.  And war-for-oil conspiracies are certainly not slowed down by the fact that the oil company once ran by Dick Cheney has made billions and billions of dollars in no bid contracts as a direct result of war prosecuted by himself and his neoconservative cronies.


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