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Post 40

Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 3:34pmSanction this postReply
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Scott,

I haven't read through the links you provided yet (I'm in the middle of making dinner), but I will later.  But I somehow doubt that anything offered up by PBS will be of any factual value.

But I will read it.

Summer


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Post 41

Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 6:41pmSanction this postReply
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The biggest thing that puzzles me about your story, Adam, is why you didn't go to the State Police, FBI, ACLU, main stream media, International Red Cross, and Amnesty International, with your story?

Here we are talking about cruel and unusual punishment being dished out to an innocent immigrant from an ex-communist country at a time when (I assume) the most hated Republican President in recent history is sitting in the White House. I mean I'd have thought the George Soros', Jesse Jackson's, Jimmy Carter's, John Kerry's and Cindy Sheehan's of this country would have been beating down your door to pay you to tell your story. If a poor house-wife from bum-fuck-ville USA can find the funding to camp out on the President's back door-step for 6 weeks, why couldn't you find a way to get the US legal system to stomp on your tormentors?

You see I've read your posts Adam. You seem ready to jump in boots-'n-all whenever one of your pet topics is maligned, so why turn the other cheek (to coin a phrase) after being treated that way?

And just what the F**K was your lawyer doing during this time? Why were plea-bargains being offered you without your lawyer being present? And if you were being denied access to your lawyer, why didn't you tell the judge?

As to the rest, as unpleasant as it is, I don't believe that exerting psychological stress on someone equates to torture - at least not how it is defined in my dictionary.



Post 42

Thursday, October 27, 2005 - 5:01amSanction this postReply
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Scott,

I'm reading through the Frontline piece now.  There's a lot to it (I'm also reading the Fay-Jones report, or what I could find of it), so I may not respond for a day or two.  So far, though, this is typical PBS fare;  lots of assertions and accusations, but nothing concrete to back them up.  Talk of  "a paper trail" and "memos", but none have been made available to back the claims. 

And one other small observation from what little I've read so far...
What was the rationale behind the Bush administration's 2002 decision that the Geneva Conventions' guidelines on treating prisoners of war don't apply in America's fight against foreign terrorists like Al Qaeda?



The above is intellectual dishonesty at its worst, but fairly representative of what I've been reading.



One last little thing before I get back to it --


...we can hardly be surprised when foreign nations, like China, laugh at us when we whine about "Human Rights".



Comparing the U.S. to China on human rights violations is patently absurd.  It's like comparing a parent who spanks his kids to a serial murderer.  But I suspect you already know that.

Summer

Post Scriptum:  While you're waiting, perhaps you might find this interesting...  Visit:  http://www.laogai.org, and then tell me all about how we're no different than China on human rights.

(Edited by Summer Serravillo on 10/27, 5:42am)

(Edited by Summer Serravillo on 10/27, 5:43am)


Post 43

Thursday, October 27, 2005 - 5:52amSanction this postReply
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Summer,

Surely you have better things to do than read all that left-wing PBS stuff. I was watching "Frontline" because nothing better was on. Before drifting off to sleep, there were a couple of things that stuck with me, like Rumsfeld & Bush changing the policy to make it more vague, and the FBI reluctant to get involved in Gitmo. They obviously wanted, as was literally said in some memo, "the gloves to come off". They wanted (wink-wink nudge-nudge) what they got.

Anyways, even if the duress was limited to their literal description, if a foreign enemy kept our P.O.W.'s or arrested citizens -

1. Up for days at a time
2. Subjected them to environmental extremes
3. Stripped them, humiliated them and let dogs threaten them
4. Solitary confinement, incommunicado,
5. Did this repeatedly over weeks and months

We would surely call it torture and make a big deal out of it. Communists used similar techniques to break people, making them confess of whatever crimes.

If we don't want Americans treated this way, we can't do it to others. You may say "we're the good guys - our ends justify our means". Everyone think's they're the "good guys", which is why violence, as a policy, can't be tolerated. You could as easily say since we're the "good guys", whatever force we choose is sanctioned. We need to keep the moral high-ground.

What's worse, once this becomes policy, it will no doubt creep into our own legal system, as Adam's described. When those soldiers come home, and go into law enforcement, they will apply what they've learned. And once the state has set the example, and tortured enough people, you can look forward to living in a much more brutal culture. Public executions and flogging's don't reduce crime (criminals never plan on getting caught) but it does make people blood-thirsty.

Scott

Post 44

Thursday, October 27, 2005 - 5:53amSanction this postReply
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Scott,

I saw a delightful episode of Frontline, which documents the changes Rumsfeld and Bush made to U.S. policy. See for yourself:

I've read about 75% of the piece thus far, and it does no such thing!  The interviewees make claims that they conveniently fail to substantiate.  I suppose if one is predisposed to believe, no evidence is necessary.

Summer


Post 45

Thursday, October 27, 2005 - 6:13amSanction this postReply
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Scott,

Surely you have better things to do than read all that left-wing PBS stuff.
Yes, I do.  But you offered up that lefty PBS stuff as evidence of something.  Unless I read it, I can't speak with any certainty as to its content/worth.

They obviously wanted, as was literally said in some memo,
Some memo?  Given that we both apparently agree that Frontline is "left-wing PBS stuff", why would you contend that, "They obviously wanted"?   How does one make the leap from a phantom memo to a definitive statement of fact?

You may say "we're the good guys - our ends justify our means".


No, I wouldn't say that... for several reasons.  And I agree that we need to keep the moral high ground.  But before I begin lamenting the treatment of murderers at the hands of U.S. troops and intelligence operatives, I want more than just the say-so of the leftist, blame-America-first crowd.

Give me proof, and I'll get pissed.

Summer


Post 46

Friday, October 28, 2005 - 9:44amSanction this postReply
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Summer,

I don't like the blame-America-first leftist crowd either. And as you've said, "if one is predisposed to believe, no evidence is necessary." I have to argue from the perspective of a dim memory, or to to the PBS site and re-read that stuff, which I don't care to do. I referenced it because I though their facts, not ennuendo, was credible. So I'll concede you the debate, though you haven't convinced me that keeping someone naked in a cell at 40 degrees, awake for days on end, with vicious dogs inches away snarling at them, isn't torture. Or that wink-wink nudge-nudge what happened is what was intended.

If any cops or soldiers really thought a wmd would be used, I doubt they would play by the "rules". "Street Justice" by cop is administered all the time, seldom caught on camera. Making it legal and policy is what I have a problem with, even to our "enemies".

Who decides who the "enemy" is? Government is notorious for deciding a little evil is a good, than expanding that evil to the tolerance of its victims.

Isn't it a shame this isn't the 1940's or 50's? Religion could be used to differentiat "us" from "them". You'd find no shortage of evangelicals to enlist to massacre the indfidel for Christendom!

Ah, the "good 'ol day"!

Scott

Post 47

Friday, October 28, 2005 - 9:51amSanction this postReply
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Scott,

So I'll concede you the debate, though you haven't convinced me that keeping someone naked in a cell at 40 degrees, awake for days on end, with vicious dogs inches away snarling at them, isn't torture.
Haven't convinced you?  I never even commented on it, much less tried to convince you of anything.

I'll bottom-line my position for ya...

Torture is wrong and fairly useless as a means of extracting information from a POW or terrorist.  My problem is that the anti-America left here is the U.S. is suggesting that we have policies in place that not only allow, but mandate torture of prisoners.  And that simply isn't true.

Summer


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