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Friday, October 14, 2005 - 4:37amSanction this postReply
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Could someone please explain why torture is ever justified?  Surely the Bush supporters here can enlighten us.

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Post 1

Friday, October 14, 2005 - 6:15amSanction this postReply
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Luke,

As a proponent of the war against the Islamists, I voted for Bush, although I can't say I'm a supporter.  However, the torture issue is phony and McCain is once again grandstanding.  The idea that the U.S. routinely employs torture let alone systematic torture like McCain's North Vietnamese captors is lunatic.  While there have been abuses of prisoners, the armed forces have held malfeasant soldiers responsible.

So there is no problem.  Try to get any of these peaceniks wailing about torture in U.S. prison camps to cite specific incidents.  If they don't rehash Abu Ghraib (sp?), an example of abuse which was investigated and prosecuted, maybe they'll talk about how Marine guards at Gitmo aren't respectful enough of Islam.  What they want is to hamstring the military by forcing them to treat the enemy with kid gloves.  They even want to get outlawed standard interrogation techniques like "good cop, bad cop".

There is no torture to justify.  The anti-torture law is another gambit of the anti-war crowd to sully our campaign against the Islamists, and McCain, always looking for the spotlight, is happy to be their useful idiot.

Andy


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Post 2

Friday, October 14, 2005 - 6:36amSanction this postReply
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 Luke,

Surely the Bush supporters here can enlighten us.


This has nothing to do with Bush... or torture, for that matter.  As Andy pointed out, this amendment is nothing but a strawman.  What written, established and/or accepted policy is it meant to negate?  And what acts of torture, as defined by the amendment, have gone uninvestigated and unpunished?

If I were president, I wouldn't sign this into law either.  It fixes no problems, and serves no legal purpose whatsoever.

Why would you advocate this -- or any -- piece of feel-good, do-nothing legislation becoming law?

Summer

Edit:  added "-- or any --"

(Edited by Summer Serravillo on 10/14, 6:38am)


Post 3

Friday, October 14, 2005 - 6:46amSanction this postReply
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What written, established and/or accepted policy is it meant to negate?  And what acts of torture, as defined by the amendment, have gone uninvestigated and unpunished?
Precisely, Summer.  Very succinctly put.

Andy


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Post 4

Friday, October 14, 2005 - 6:56amSanction this postReply
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Andy and Summer, I appreciate your posts to clarify this news item.  I still await Adam's rebuttals, if he has any, since he posted this item in the first place.

Just to be clear, I had not followed this ongoing controversy very closely, hence I could not comprehend why Bush would not sign the bill.  Now I understand.  No, I would not advocate any piece of feel-good, do-nothing legislation.


Post 5

Friday, October 14, 2005 - 6:57amSanction this postReply
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Andy,

Are you saying that the US does not employ torture or cannot employ torture. If does not: please tell me how you know this. If cannot: please tell me why.

Sarah

Post 6

Friday, October 14, 2005 - 7:14amSanction this postReply
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Luke,

...I had not followed this ongoing controversy very closely, hence I could not comprehend why Bush would not sign the bill...

Right.    Just reading the amendment and knowing nothing else, one gets the impression that there is a problem to be addressed.  If the amendment could be said to have a purpose, that would be it. 

Summer


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Post 7

Friday, October 14, 2005 - 7:21amSanction this postReply
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Sarah,

I am saying both.  The U.S. does not employ torture under any standard definition of the word.  Nor can the U.S. under military regulations employ it.  That's not to say abuses don't occur.  They always do in war.

How do I know any of this?  Only by reading what is publicly available and information from my brother who in Air Force intelligence for twenty years.  I'm certainly not putting myself out as an expert on this.

However, notably absent from this hue and cry are specific charges of genuine torture - other than the waterboarding the CIA has been accused of employing against Al Qaeda operatives, and I don't think scaring the hell of out someone really qualifies as torture - so it adds up to being a phony issue.  A straw man like Summer said.

I can't prove to you a negative, Sarah, but then no one has identified any actual torture by the U.S.  Certainly not as a matter of policy.

Andy


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Friday, October 14, 2005 - 7:26amSanction this postReply
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Andy,

No proof of negatives necessary. Just checking to make sure you weren't claiming omniscience.

Sarah

Post 9

Friday, October 14, 2005 - 8:03amSanction this postReply
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Andy a god? hmmmmmmmmmmmm........

Post 10

Friday, October 14, 2005 - 10:55amSanction this postReply
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Craig Murray, ex-UK ambassador to Uzbekistan claims that the US routinely uses evidence gained from torture, and passes it on the UK. While this is not torture itself, it seems foolish and possibly immoral.

Foolish because evidence gained from torture is unreliable.

The immorality I'm not sure about. If someone offered me information that a settlement was going to be attacked , and the information was gained from torture, I think I would want to use the information and then pursue prosecution of the torturers.


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Post 11

Friday, October 14, 2005 - 8:50pmSanction this postReply
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I posted this because, whatever my differences with McCain, we share the experience of having survived torture. In 1999, I spent 11 days in Monmouth County jail in New Jersey. While I was eventually able to prove my innocence (the charges were dismissed and the arrest record expunged) thanks to the work of a courageous and competent lawyer, the trauma of torture severely hampered my life for months afterward, and some of its effects are likely to stay with me for the rest of my life.

I spent the first night in jail in a "boat," a sleep-deprivation device now commonly used in civilian and military jails and prisons across America. The "boat" was invented by the StaSi secret police of former Communist East Germany, and was denounced as a torture device by the United States at the time. Long-term sleep deprivation was used by the former East Germany and the Soviet Union and its other satellites to induce symptoms of mental illness in otherwise healthy dissidents, to justify the incarceration of political dissidents in mental hospitals. Some state governments in the United States subsequently re-defined "torture" to exclude sleep deprivation from the new "legal definition" of torture. The "boat" is routinely used to make prisoners appear unbalanced and dangerous at hearings and trials. It is also used, as it was in my case, as a method of intimidation, intended to coerce plea bargains regardless of the prisoner's actual innocence or guilt.

I spent the entire 11 days in another torture device, a "freezer cell" refrigerated to about -30 degrees Celsius, in a sleeveless uniform - essentially a tank-top with pockets - without socks or tee shirt, or bedding other than a minuscule baby blanket. I was constantly threatened with a return to the "boat" unless I agreed to a false plea bargain. Having read the memoirs of Gulag survivors, I knew enough to wake up every hour for several minutes of vigorous exercise until my circulation was restored. Some other prisoners had the misfortune of sleeping beyond an hour at a time in the next freezer cell, and lost parts of their toes to frostbite.

On top of this, I was deprived for five days of my prostate medication. The pain of a bladder blocked by an unmedicated enlarged prostate is so intense that, back in the old days before prostate medications were invented, men gladly submitted to primitive surgery that made them incontinent and impotent for the rest of their lives just to be rid of the pain.

Some US State governments - including the Sopranos' domain of New Jersey and the US military under W have "redefined" torture to permit all of the above - the boat, the freezer, the deliberate infliction of extreme pain by depriving a prisoner of medically necessary medication - as "not rising to the level of torture." It is not conduct that can be humanly excused in - or on behalf of - a civilized country.


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Post 12

Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 2:00amSanction this postReply
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Adam:

I am outraged that you were tortured. Obtaining a confession using torture is not only a perversion of justice, it is completely unreliable. A confession might be an attempt by the confessor to stop the torture. This is not rocket science.

Now as to obtaining information from known terrorists that could save the population of an entire city, I might be inclined to condone torture.

In fact, I would probably use it myself on a person who kidnapped a loved one and refused to tell me his or her location (I assume that the loved one will perish if not found). Here again, I already know the kidnapper is guilty. I am trying to rescue my loved one.  

To the objection that I am condoning torture of our boys by the Islamic thugs who would bury the West -- they are on the evil side. We are on the moral side. One cannot equate our bombing of Berlin with the Nazi bombings of London. We were right.


Post 13

Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 2:40amSanction this postReply
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Marty:

Now as to obtaining information from known terrorists that could save the population of an entire city, I might be inclined to condone torture.

I would not hesitate to use it.

Linz



Post 14

Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 6:55amSanction this postReply
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 I spent 11 days in Monmouth County jail in New Jersey
Have you never heard of bail?

Give enemy combatants the right to take the fifth?  Oh yeah, great idea.  I hope the sarcasm is clear.

(Edited by Robert Davison on 10/15, 6:58am)


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Post 15

Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 8:41amSanction this postReply
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You're lying, Reed.
I spent the entire 11 days in another torture device, a "freezer cell" refrigerated to about -30 degrees Celsius, in a sleeveless uniform - essentially a tank-top with pockets - without socks or tee shirt, or bedding other than a minuscule baby blanket.
You'd have died of hypothermia and frostbite after less than a day of exposure to such severe cold.  (That would be -22 F for the metrically challenged among us.)  To provide an example that would be familiar to many, all of those who escaped the sinking of the Titanic by going directly into the water in lifejackets were all dead by the morning because of exposure to water and air temperatures that we above freezing.  And you survived with even less clothing at temperatures fifty degrees colder than that for eleven days?  Yeah, right.

Andy

(Edited by Andy Postema on 10/15, 9:21am)


Post 16

Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 9:40amSanction this postReply
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Adam: Your story is horrific but has the ring of truth. It really should be detailed and documented as much as possible -- to educate the public.
 
Here in America there are two and ONLY two kinds of people: those who have a decent opinion of the police and those who've had a personal experience with them. 


Post 17

Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 10:19amSanction this postReply
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Adam,

Of course.  I was reluctant to call him a liar.  I would be interesting to know what the charge was.


Post 18

Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 10:21amSanction this postReply
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Robert,

My arrest took place when my assets were frozen by court order on behalf of my former wife, so that I was not able to make bail from my own funds. My friends were raising money for my bail, but the police twice went to court with lies that got the bail doubled each time. The 11 days was the total time of three frantic efforts by my friends to raise the constantly increased amounts.

Andy,

The cold in the "freezer" is applied on a randomized schedule, designed to cause maximum pain and fear without (usually) killing or maiming the prisoner.

Marty, Linz,

There is no evidence that "information" procured by torturing a prisoner - especially a prisoner determined to "get back" at his torturers by lying to them - is more reliable than a random guess. The idea of many lives (or even one life) saved by torturing a prisoner is a fantasy.


(Edited by Adam Reed
on 10/15, 12:31pm)


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Post 19

Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 11:24pmSanction this postReply
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  • (a) In General.-No individual in the custody or under the physical control of the United States Government, regardless of nationality or physical location, shall be subject to cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment.

    [Page S10909]

  • (b) Construction.-Nothing in this section shall be construed to impose any geographical limitation on the applicability of the prohibition against cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment under this section.


  • Now Bush ain't the smartest guy but it would take a damn fool not to see that these are loaded terms.  You have dumbasses out there saying "cruel and unsual" includes the death penalty, how do you think they are going to look at "degrading treatment?"  As for "geographical limitation" I can see it now:  Some soldiers catch a terrorist in the desert who they know knows where a hostage is who is about to get her head cut off.  For the hell of it lets say she is a Muslim woman and it would be degrading to search her much less question her without her husband.  These soldiers know that pointing a gun at a persons head usually gets them talking quick but while they're debating if thats inhuman, a woman's head is rolling on the floor.


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