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Post 20

Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 2:29pmSanction this postReply
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After reading Philip Coates’ assessment of women, and Objectivists women in particular, I’m left a little confused.

 

Women that don’t ask questions, or keep conversations formal and academic; where the hell did you find these? In the past, most of the ones I have met are usually in Dick Tracey mode within 15 minutes. Of course, since these are Objectivists women you are talking about, somehow I’m suppose to believe that the explanations are complex psychological ones that are a by-product of the woman's misunderstanding of the philosophy, and a hyper-rejection of altruism.  

 

Perhaps so, but on the other hand, maybe it’s not all that complex or has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact they are Objectivists; besides, any speculation along these lines, is just that, speculation, and of the highly unsupported type.  Jesus, Phil, is your first hand knowledge and experience with dating women so deep, that you really believe you can play Sigmund Freud about their thinking and motivations within this context?

 

Sorry, but I don’t buy that you are in a position to make those judgments.

 

Look, I'll grant you that some women are self-absorbed bitches, but on average, I have not found this to be the case. In fact, in my experience, self-absorption seems to run rampant among men. If I were to wager on whether it would be the male or female that doesn’t really give a damn about what the other does, thinks or aspires to; my money is on the guy. But be that as it may, there is another possibility that is missing, and it is a far simpler explanation than these complex armchair-psychologist ones that I have read on this thread.

 

Try this; write down every possible reason why these women may not be asking you any questions: then run Occam’s Razor across that list.

 

George

(Edited by George W. Cordero on 4/04, 2:50pm)


Post 21

Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 3:23pmSanction this postReply
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> Jesus, Phil, is your first hand knowledge and experience with dating women so deep

George I was talking about Objectivists of both sexes. And yes, my experience with Oists -is- that deep.

>If I were to wager on whether it would be the male or female..

It's not a battle of the sexes issue or trying to say who is worst issue (I don't care).

> the explanations are complex psychological ones

My explanation was pretty straightforward, not complex. You're free to disagree with it if you've never seen the self-absorbed Oists as I (and Mike Dickey and Bill Perry and *dozens* of others I've spoken to about this) have and if you've seen as many as I have so you are prepared to observe a pattern.



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Post 22

Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 4:42pmSanction this postReply
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Phil: And yes, my experience with Oists -is- that deep.

 

That's nice, but it's an answer to a question I never asked. The question was, "Phil, is your first hand knowledge and experience with dating women so deep?"

 

Phil: My explanation was pretty straightforward, not complex.

The topic was women, that on a date, don’t ask questions and/or keep it formal. Given the myriad of reasons that a woman you dated might not ask you questions or keeps the talk formal, I found the reasons you gave as the least probable, and ones that required the greatest amount of psychologizing to arrive at.

 

Phil: You're free to disagree with it if you've never seen the self-absorbed Oists ... and if you've seen as many as I have so you are prepared to observe a pattern.

 

Oh no, I do not disagree with you at all; you’re quite right on this point; and yes, I have come across quite a few self-absorbed Objectivists. Trust me, insofar as the topic of ‘self-absorbed’ Objectivists goes, I am quite confident that your knowledge, is second to none.

 

George

(Edited by George W. Cordero on 4/05, 6:04am)


Post 23

Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 7:30pmSanction this postReply
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I all ready responded to this but apparently my post was lost, so I apologize if it pops up again later. 

 

I think what Phil had to say here has some value, for starters two of these woman were into objectivism in high school, so there are some data points for his hypothesis.  I have found that the more someone identifies themselves with the big O Objectivist the more likely they seem to have a pejorative and self absorbed attitude.  Of course my sample is small and I rarely partake in formal objectivist events (partly because of the above)

 

As far as George and John's comments I am very well aware that woman might not like me, in fact I am sure a great many do not!  But in these two cases I do not think that was the simplest explanation.  I appreciate George’s comments but in reality he doesn’t know the situation well enough and in these cases I will refer to my own rational judgment and there have been quite a few women I did not find self absorbed who had objectivist leaning who I liked a great deal (well one anyway)  One of these self absorbed -ish women did indeed end up with no interest in me once we actually went on a date (where again she was polite and talkative and even engaging, but did not seek to learn anything about me), which was fine as I had lost interest in her for these reasons but prior to that we had talked quite a few times, mostly online.  She usually initiated the conversation and initiated our meeting, but even in those conversations where she must have clearly been intrigued she made no effort in these regards.  In fact the only question, literally, she ever asked me was a 'Hey, how are you doing' once when she initiated a conversation with me. 

 

The other one I have been 'friends' with for some time and we even dated for a little while, but she was and still is the same way.  Even now she will invite me to social gatherings and not have much to say to me.  Given that she complained that there are no inspirational people in her life, I think it's sad. 

 

I don't think shallow is an appropriate description though, as that seems to have too many negative conversations.  Perhaps ignorant in the nature of relationships or inexperienced, they seemed more like they had a desire to be very personable but were unable to manifest that into actions, as if they were just going through the motions of having a friend.  With the later girl nearly every single time we hung out it was the same thing, I recall once when we started talking / dating that I had been discussing a few times an upcoming job including the interview.  A few days past the interview I had mentioned to her that I got the job, she had never asked and apologized for not recalling it.  I wasn’t mad or annoyed, I just think behavior like that is indicative of a whole slew of other things.  That kind of distance is not anything I would want out of a romantic relationship; i'd rather not have one at all. 

 

In all of this I am definitely refining my list of what I look for in a woman.  Like most ‘objectivists’ I value honesty, sincerity, integrity, and passion very highly, but I also highly value kindness and a general fondness of other people (I loved Rand's line just before Roark's courtroom speech “And for that instance, each man was free-free enough to feel the benevolence for each man in the room” )  Those latter two qualities I have a hard time finding in Rand admirers for whatever reasons and I think having a fundamental eudaimonic interest in another person requires similiar emotions as that fondness.

Michael F Dickey



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Post 24

Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 11:18pmSanction this postReply
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Bill,

I wish you well wherever your mind is taking you and that you arrive happy, productive, prosperous and in good health. You may not wish to comment on this post, given our obvious differences, but I do hope you consider something I want to raise below. You wrote:
I want to more closely examine the open-closed system issue.  Why are the closed system advocates producing more scholarly works about Objectivism than the open system advocates?  What is the status of those works within the philosophy?
You answered the "open system advocates" thing earlier in this thread by not considering Chris Sciabarra and other non-ARI scholars on Objectivism as Objectivists or "open system advocates." Fair enough.

However, on going through The Objectivist Newsletter and The Objectivist, there are many authors who are no longer studied and you can only access their Objectivist works in the full bound versions of these two periodicals. According to Rand's own pronouncements, they are part of the "closed system." Yet they are brushed aside by the "closed system advocates." One would think that they would be used.

As it stands, neither "open system advocates" nor "closed system advocates" make use of these works. Are they part of the philosophy or not? If not, why? And if so, why aren't they more easily available and being studied?

I offer this as one of the things for you to mull over (if it is not already on your list).

Michael


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Post 25

Wednesday, April 5, 2006 - 12:06amSanction this postReply
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> Insofar as the topic of ‘self-absorbed’ Objectivists goes, I am quite confident that you’re knowledge, is second to none. [George]

Insulting person ignored.

Post 26

Wednesday, April 5, 2006 - 10:37amSanction this postReply
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> I also highly value kindness and a general fondness of other people [MFD]

I agree.

> Those latter two qualities I have a hard time finding in Rand admirers for whatever reasons ... I have found that the more someone identifies themselves with the big O Objectivist the more likely they seem to have a pejorative and self absorbed attitude.

I agree that it's rare (but not only among Objectivists). One reason I developed a talk at TOC several years ago on how to reach and sustain benevolence, the wider attitude involved here, is that I think genuine, all-the-way-down benevolence is the hardest to sustain for Objectivists and the rarest of all the eight virtues. (You don't find many Oists lacking honesty, independence, a sense of justice on the most basic level).

But my sample over the years is such that I have had a somewhat different experience on your second, correlation with intense commitment to Objectivism, point. The people who are vehement and angry are often not actually the ones who are most thoroughly Oist. (The "first to denounce; first to bail" principle.) Sometimes they are loudest in proclaiming their commitment (or the opposite, their disillusionment).

By contrast, it was striking when I saw the quality of people drawn to my first summer conference, the Jefferson School in the eighties. The more well-rounded, benevolent, socially polished, less insulting people are the ones that tend to be drawn to events that take a certain level of commitment (not just talk or a shaky understanding of the philosophy). They tend to be big O Objectivists. I don't know if I already made this point in another post, but this is so striking and is the reason people always report back having had a wonderful time at the summer conferences. There are people who take Ayn Rand as a vehicle for every anger, for all their alienation, for all their disappointments in people, for -their own- lack of control. But the ones who do are far more likely to sit in their armchairs and fulminate at the world, than to have their lives in order, to plan ahead, to invest time and money, to go to a summer conference.

> I rarely partake in formal objectivist events

I think it would be a mistake to isolate oneself from them for this reason: Some of the best people I've known over the years are big O Objectivists.

And I strongly recommend going to the TOC conference (the one I am familiar with over the last ten years...I can't give a judgment about the current ARI conferences, but suspect there would be many great people there as well.) The thing that decides it for me is those conferences have hundreds of people, so you can always find a simpatico group or type to hang out with. [There is always a group or two that is laughing, joking, and having fun...and after a hard day of thinking and taking notes, that's where I'll be this summer at mealtime and in the evenings.]

The problem is that it takes time and considerable effort...and a special commitment to the idea of its importance...to become an "integrated personality", to check and reverse the natural impulse in every child to make everything "about you" in the sense the term self-absorbed suggests. In the cases we are talking about (which are only one form of this), to not fully grasp the reality and needs and special contexts of other people. Or how they could be wrong or mistaken. About philosophy or libertarianism. About simple factual matters. About how they could simply be legitimately different in personality or tastes or lifestyle: "How could anyone not like this book/movie/artist/kind of food..." The teens and twenties is when most people fully learn about, sort out their ideas about these things, "bounce off of" people. But it's not the time when most who are reading Objectivism are investing time doing this. You constantly hear people say, "When I first discovered it, I was a complete b*** or a complete a***".

Philip Coates



Post 27

Wednesday, April 5, 2006 - 11:45amSanction this postReply
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Just be glad you guys are in a position to date single O’ist women (let alone have em as friends). Try living in New Mexico.


Post 28

Wednesday, April 5, 2006 - 10:58pmSanction this postReply
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Greg, y'ain't got nuthin' on me -- I live in the Mid-Left (in Minnesota) -- something like the 5th or 6th most socialist state in the union!

Little voices are constantly talking to me: Go West, young man.

Ed



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Post 29

Thursday, April 6, 2006 - 2:25pmSanction this postReply
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Bill,

A few thoughts about open/closed system and intellectual productivity.

You seem to be using "open system Objectivist" in a pretty narrow sense--others might well just say "Kelleyite." That's OK, so long as you and your audience keep on the same page about it. Among the Kelleyites (or close by), yes, only Hicks and Torres/Kamhi have had books out in the last few years. If you count significant articles in, let us say, the Journal of Ayn Rand Studies, you can add a few more, such as Roger Bissell and Marsha Enright (and I further assume that Kirsti Minsaas counts). But some prominent members of the TOC crowd have been less productive.

Meanwhile, the recent output of some ARI affiliated authors (esp. Smith, Mayhew, and Milgram) has been noteworthy and in some cases praiseworthy. Still, I hear all the time about ARI material that is available only on tape or at their conferences--the old Objectivist oral tradition is still going strong. The brasher ARIans' claims to esoteric knowledge of Objectivism and superiority over the rabble generally pertain to this kind of material. Maybe the new journal that's coming out of ARI will help to change these practices? That would be nice.

One reason why the "open-system" label can be somewhat misleading is that some people have dropped it without any significant change in their underlying belief systems. Chris Sciabarra used to be OK with "open-system Objectivist"; he no longer calls himself an Objectivist because he's sick of what some of the closed-system types are doing. I've been less invested in the label for a longer period of time, but 10 years ago I was reasonably comfortable with "open-system." I've grown so fed up now with the antics of some of the closed-system advocates that I will correct anyone who refers to me as an Objectivist.

Two further observations:

While you are correct that Machan, Mack, Rasmussen, Den Uyl, Hunt, et al. (and we could add Mimi Gladstein, Rod Long, Steve Cox, and some other folks you didn't mention) are not Kelleyites, and some of them wouldn't want to be called anything with "Objectivist" in the title, I find it interesting that the zealous closed-system advocates treat them exactly the same as the Kelleyites--either pretending they don't exist or furiously anathematizing them. Certainly Sciabarra and I have both found that calling ourselves non-Objectivists hasn't made the zealots one bit more eager to coexist with us.

What's more, if you read some recent posts from Diana Hsieh and Mike Mazza over on SOLOPassion, you may note an apparent shift in the official line coming out of ARI. Read the fine print in their distinction between "Objectivism" (which has to have been written by Ayn Rand or brought down from the mountaintop by Lenny Peikoff) and "Objectivist philosophy" (which can be anything done by ARI-approved scholars, so long as it doesn't blatantly contradict the Randian corpus after the "nonphilosophical" remarks have been trimmed off). Trying to make sense of what this could mean, I've concluded it's an open system, it's just closed to persons not approved by ARI.

I'm taking a day or two off from SOLOPassion; I want to let the zealots froth over my new essay taking Ms. Hsieh to task for her copious, irresponsible charges of "pseudo-scholarship." But I will try to take up this curious development at ARI in a few days. I never understood how a strict closed-system approach could keep working--imagine where Objectivism will be in 500 years, if it's truly a closed system--and it might just be that this has started dawning on the ARIans as well.

Robert Campbell

(Edited by Robert Campbell on 4/06, 3:27pm)

(Edited by Robert Campbell on 4/06, 6:39pm)


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Post 30

Thursday, April 6, 2006 - 5:15pmSanction this postReply
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Why wait 500 - try just 100.....

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Post 31

Thursday, April 6, 2006 - 6:14pmSanction this postReply
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I wish I could sanction Campbell's post again. That SoloP post was one of the best, most thought provoking, sincere, benevolent, entertaining, interesting, enlightening things I have ever read regarding the post-Rand movement.  





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Post 32

Thursday, April 6, 2006 - 6:18pmSanction this postReply
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I am very faintly curious about what anyone hopes to accomplish in spending time on those sites, and addressing the rants of those particular people. After all, "closed" does not describe just their attitude toward Objectivism.



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Post 33

Thursday, April 6, 2006 - 6:37pmSanction this postReply
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Teresa,

Thank you for the compliment.

Robert B,

Don't worry.  Whether it's because I quit posting, or because Lindsay Perigo throws me off the board, I don't expect to be active on SoloPassion for very long.

Robert C


Post 34

Thursday, April 6, 2006 - 11:55pmSanction this postReply
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The temptation to joke is huge, but I will resist. Let me just salute both Roberts. You are both marvelous scholars and intellectuals of Objectivism.

Shine on.

Michael


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Post 35

Friday, April 7, 2006 - 7:28amSanction this postReply
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This is what Ayn Rand had to say, which has a bearing on this conversation:

"If you wonder why I am so particular about protecting the integrity of the term 'Objectivism,' my reason is that 'Objectivism' is the name I have given to my philosophy—therefore, anyone using that name for some philosophical hodgepodge of his own, without my knowledge or consent, is guilty of the fraudulent presumption ... of trying to pass his thinking off as mine.... What is the proper policy on this issue? If you agree with some tenets of Objectivism, but disagree with others, do not call yourself an Objectivist; give proper authorship credit for the parts you agree with—and then indulge in any flights of fancy you wish, on your own." Ayn Rand, "To the Readers of The Objectivist Forum,” The Objectivist Forum, Vol. 1, No. 1, ARI FAQ

Respecting her wishes, some have stopped calling themselves Objectivists. Others continue to pass off their "philosophical hodgepodge" as Objectivism.


John





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Post 36

Friday, April 7, 2006 - 7:29amSanction this postReply
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My personal opinion on this dust-up between ARI, TOC, and SOLO is, it's clearly something that needs to happen and work itself out.

That said, I dislike the idea of this behind-the-wall turd hurling. The RoR forum, in my personal opinion, isn't well served by being seen as a camp in this war.

I've had my disagreements with various people from all of these "camps." Many will note my not-too-long-past participation in a thread on SOLO where I questioned Linz's branding of Joe as a thief (which he continues to do.)

I will say this, however, Linz has thrown down the gauntlet for TOC members to join in the debate on SOLO. If you want to continue to make arguments about this, take it to SOLO and pick up his gauntlet. As long as you remain polite I'm sure you can continue to debate on SOLO. I wasn't banned for disagreeing with Linz about the SOLOHQ split and it was quite a debate. I feel I held my own, in what was a fairly hostile crowd.

So, if its worth mentioning and arguing about, its worth doing it in the right place, in my opinion. Let the truth be found.

Ethan


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Post 37

Friday, April 7, 2006 - 7:32amSanction this postReply
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Robert you wrote:

"I'm taking a day or two off from SOLOPassion; I want to let the zealots froth over my new essay taking Ms. Hsieh to task for her copious, irresponsible charges of "pseudo-scholarship."

Why not stay and engage in the discussion, Robert? And if, as you say, they are "zealots", then what is the point in posting an essay there, then cutting and running?




John

Post 38

Friday, April 7, 2006 - 8:10amSanction this postReply
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Why not stay and engage in the discussion, Robert? And if, as you say, they are "zealots", then what is the point in posting an essay there, then cutting and running?
I don't think that's what he's doing, John.  Often we'll see something proposed here by one author, argued over for a few days by other thinkers, and then the author will come back to give analysis of the critics through defense or agreement.

It's interesting to see how opinions are formed or maintained and why.



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Post 39

Friday, April 7, 2006 - 9:56amSanction this postReply
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Ethan Dawe is correct. SOLO is not in the business of banning and purging. Just like on the old SOLOhq, only the worst trolls will actually be banned or moderated.

If you start a thread on SOLO it is best to continue the discussion there rather then respond to what is being said on another message board like ROR. Robert C has just indicated that he intends to do this and I hope that his supporters here will also take up the fight on SOLO instead of bad mouthing what is taking place in that discussion over here where it is safe.

- Jason
(Edited by Jason Quintana
on 4/07, 10:00am)


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