About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadPage 0Page 1Forward one pageLast Page


Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Post 0

Thursday, August 3, 2006 - 4:00pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ok well I few problems I see with this guy, the following are his objectives:

Primary Objectives

* Stop the polarization of America
* Stop the domination of the Democratic and Republican parties over our political system
* Shut down the Federal Reserve system
* Return America's gold to Fort Knox and have it audited
* Have Congress and the IRS, in a public forum, reveal the law that requires Americans to pay a direct, unapportioned tax on their labor.
* Make computerized voting illegal in all 50 states
* Keep the internet free and out of the control of large institutions
* Rescind the law called the Real ID Act so Americans never have to carry a National ID Card
* Make it illegal to implant RFID chips in human beings
* Educate juries to the fact that they have the right to determine the law as well as the facts of a case
* Educate juries to the fact that they are not obligated to follow the instructions of a judge
* Stop Globalization because it is the path to a one world government
* Protect our borders
* Restore the environment
* Put an end to the Patriot Act
* Sign up millions of Americans so we can accomplish our objectives



I have an issue with the following objectives:

-Keep the internet free and out of the control of large institutions

-Stop Globalization because it is the path to a one world government

-Restore the environment

No one is entitled to free internet.

Globalization is good, not evil, and it is not a path to one government.

There is nothing wrong with the environment, it is cleaner, and better than it has ever been in modern history.

Sounds like an amalgamation of political views, nothing to it that is a coherent integration of principles. Just random catch phrases.

Post 1

Thursday, August 3, 2006 - 5:24pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I think "keep the internet free" refers to people's ability to put up what they like, not the cost of access--but I could be wrong.

I'm a bit embarrassed to admit this, but I never scrolled down to see the primary objectives.

Based on the concentration of content in the trailers and interview, I assume the bulk of the documentary is about the things I mentioned in my comments: the illegality of income tax and the loss of individual freedoms.  He also discusses the gold standard at some length.  It does seem as though some of the other issues were just thrown in there, but I'm still going to see the documentary as soon as I can.


Sanction: 3, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 3, No Sanction: 0
Post 2

Friday, August 4, 2006 - 7:17amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
John - exactly right.  It is a mish-mash of ideas, some valid, others woefully ignorant.  It perfectly proves why Libertarianism as it is now is a dead end.  Only an integrated philosophy like Objectivism can avoid the circular logic and nonsense displayed here. 

Post 3

Friday, August 4, 2006 - 8:35amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Kurt, my only dilemma now as an ex-Libertarian that can't stand the Democrats or the Republicans, who do I vote for?

Post 4

Friday, August 4, 2006 - 9:21amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
What made you abandon libertarianism?

Post 5

Friday, August 4, 2006 - 9:40amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
John, Kurt--

I don't think the point of this movie is to present a coherent philosophy of life, but to make people aware of certain issues.  The points you disagree with are ones that he seems to spend very little time on, and the points that he spends the greatest amount of time supporting and emphasizing are ones that are in line with Objectivism.  He certainly doesn't treat them as "catch phrases".  Isn't that a good trade-off?

Do you think that people who are basically unaware of any of these issues would still be better off not seeing the movie?

Also, could you show me where the circular logic is?  I missed it.


Post 6

Friday, August 4, 2006 - 9:58amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
"Kurt, my only dilemma now as an ex-Libertarian that can't stand the Democrats or the Republicans, who do I vote for?"

Don't.

Post 7

Friday, August 4, 2006 - 10:40amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
What made you abandon libertarianism?


People like Harry Brown and the rest of the anarchists that are a part of that party. I can't in good conscience vote for a party that stands for the destruction of liberty.

Post 8

Friday, August 4, 2006 - 10:44amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I forgot a few other objections I have:

* Educate juries to the fact that they have the right to determine the law as well as the facts of a case

What does this mean? Does it mean juries have the right to change the law in a way that destroys individual rights? No I don't agree with this either. I don't think juries should have the right or more accurately the power to become legislators as they decide someone's guilt or innocence.



Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Post 9

Friday, August 4, 2006 - 11:04amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I kind of like Browne. Have you read any of his books? Also, I think libertarians, like objectivists. come in all shapes and sizes. Hell, there are objectivists who are also anarchists. Are you supporting a philosophy that is advocating the destruction of liberty?

Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 10

Friday, August 4, 2006 - 11:53amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
"Educate juries to the fact that they have the right to determine the law as well as the facts of a case"

Jury nullification. It means that juries could choose to deliver 'not guilty' to undisputed violations of labor, discrimination, gun, drug, etc. laws. There is a non-zero chance of it being used to clear people of victim-ful crimes. But the concept of jury nullification exists regardless whether people are aware of it, and making for fully-informed juries seems much more likely to prevent conviction under unjust laws than to mean more true criminals going free.


Post 11

Friday, August 4, 2006 - 12:11pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Jonathan--

I don't think it's technically possible to be an anarchist and an Objectivist.  Maybe an anarchist could agree with some of Objectivist philosophy, but not all of it.  I'm pretty sure that Rand's views on government--that it is meant to protect individual rights, and "set man free from men"--precluded anarchism.  Under anarchism, use of force to attain one's ends (via stealing, killing, etc) would not be illegal, correct?

John--

The fact that a party has a few members who are anarchists does not necessarily mean that the party itself stands for the destruction of liberty.  As to the juries, I don't know if that's what he meant.  I doubt it.

Would you mind responding to what I said in post five?


Post 12

Friday, August 4, 2006 - 1:03pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ben responding to post 5, you've convinced me to see the movie. I am eager to see what he has to say. One thing that I don't understand though is that he claims there are no federal laws on income taxes. I don't know where he gets that. There are certainly income tax laws, and the Constitution was even amended to allow for them. But I certainly agree in principle there should not be income taxes.

Post 13

Friday, August 4, 2006 - 1:35pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Can you use google video?  This is a link to the interview with Aaron Russo:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3254488777215293198&q=aaron+russo

Skip to 22:15--that's where he starts discussing the income tax.  He talks about it for roughly 6 minutes.  I can't personally verify this information, but it doesn't sound like he's just making it up.  Not that my impressions are valid measures of truth.  ;-)


Post 14

Friday, August 4, 2006 - 1:57pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ben the only thing that I can make out to his argument was that the 16th amendment was fraudulently ratified. Now the 16th amendment to the constitution states:

Amendment XVI

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

Now how it was fraudulently ratified he doesn't say.


Looking at Article V of the Consitution, it explains how amendments are to be passed:

The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate.


As far as I can tell, the argument goes several states violated their own laws on how their state legislature is to vote on an amendment. But if there were any state laws broken, I don't see how that matters. State laws are inferior to Federal laws, and there is nothing in Article V that states specifically how the state's legislators are to vote on a proposed amendment and ratify it. So it honestly seems a bit of shaky argument, but I'm certainly no attorney. The easiest thing would be to challenge this in court.
(Edited by John Armaos
on 8/04, 2:04pm)


Post 15

Friday, August 4, 2006 - 3:24pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
What he's claiming is that there is no actual law that compels a wage-earner in the USA to pay an unapportioned income tax on his/her wages (I presume this goes for salaries as well).

Furthermore, he states that the government has been asked to reveal the law requiring the tax to be paid--and the government has refused to do so.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4035648463442185390&q=aaron+russo

It's in the first few minutes.  (^^ This is a link to a longer trailer for the movie.)

He said elsewhere that the law that is in place only applies to corporations, and that individuals only pay the tax by volition, not legal necessity.


Post 16

Friday, August 4, 2006 - 6:03pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I will remain skeptical on this until I hear someone who isn't put in jail for not paying their income taxes.

Post 17

Friday, August 4, 2006 - 8:52pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Part of the point is that the taxation isn't lawful, but the government still gets away with it under threat of coercion.  In other words, the imprisonment of people who don't pay is unlawful.  ..But there's really nothing one person can do about a team of armed federal soldiers at his/her doorstep.

Actually, later in the interview I posted a link to, he says that 67 million people aren't paying their income taxes, and that that figure was given to him directly from the IRS.  He did mention that most of them were simply defaulting or trying to escape payment--not protesting.

Either he or the interviewer states that several people who had been IRS agents--upon finding out that there was no law compelling them to pay--quit their jobs and stopped paying.  He/she didn't say whether or not they got in trouble for it.

None of this proves anything, of course.  Hopefully the movie is well-documented, so that watchers can personally verify what he's saying.


Sanction: 3, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 3, No Sanction: 0
Post 18

Saturday, August 5, 2006 - 1:20pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I vote for whomever will do the least damage and the ones who will cut taxes.  It tends to be Republicans, despite the negatives.  At least they are not appeasing our enemies and advocating taking more money from my pocket.  I think there is little danger to me that I will be forced to believe in religion, but new taxes I have experienced, and the same goes for lower taxes.  Biggest problem with Bush has been increasing spending - but have not seen any Democrats fighting that.  If they do, or if there are local politicians who may be different, I would vote for them.

Sanction: 3, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 3, No Sanction: 0
Post 19

Saturday, August 5, 2006 - 1:24pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Also, being intimately familiar with "men with guns" who come to my friend's house because he has trouble paying the exceptionally high school taxes - taxes for a school system he gets nothing from, and in fact he went to private school - I agree it is evil and coercive.  No doubt about that.

Post to this threadPage 0Page 1Forward one pageLast Page


User ID Password or create a free account.