About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadBack one pagePage 0Page 1


Post 20

Sunday, August 6, 2006 - 8:23amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
As a matter of tradition, and, IMHO logic, the ratification of an amendment to the US Constitution required identical wording and punctuation, at least. Traditionally, voting on an amendment resolution with any differences in these was used, among other things, as a means of appearing to support what in reality was opposed. Thus, to declare differences to be insignificant, as in this account, is to declare a change in the rules, and to take a victory that might not have been earned in a fair fight. Considering that 1913 was a fatal year for the US, and not only in this respect, it was a great shame that this ploy was acquiesced to, in the case of the 16th Amendment.

Being unable to find, in either Article V of the US Constitution, or in The Federalist, an explicit account of this requirement, I presume that it was taken for granted that in order for the same amendment to be ratified in 3/4 of the states, the amendment voted upon must, in fact, be identical everywhere, in its language. Similarly, there does not appear to be any such provision concerning the passage of a bill by both houses of Congress, or its signing by the President -- although adding instructions for executive implementation would not necessarily affect the law and therefore wouldn't necessarily be wrong. As a related point, before the MA SJC's corrupt decision re markings in Walsh vs. Secretary of the Commonwealth, and continuing today, it is forbidden to change the summary
on an initiative or referendum petition in any way whatsoever; even highlighting is banned.

The book, BTW, contained photographic copies of the ratifications. (A now-deceased friend showed it to me.)


Post 21

Sunday, August 6, 2006 - 9:05amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ben I'm sorry, although as appealing as it sounds to someone like me who is opposed to taxes on income, it is against the law to forego paying your income taxes. It's enumerated in the 16th amendment, and it's in the federal tax codes. I found a wikipedia entry with the specific code:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_1_of_the_Internal_Revenue_Code

It's just bunk, and to think some people will stop paying their income taxes after seeing this film and ruin their lives in the process is a little sad. We shouldn't fight the injustice of income taxes on the basis of some pseudo analysis of the law, it's really quite irrelevant, the government thinks it's the law, it's in the constitution, it's written law, if it's an illegal law the courts are not buying it. To fight the injustice of income tax properly should be through a moral argument against it, not through some questionable legal analysis. And what would come of that anyways if you convinced people it's illegal? The government can just make it legal then. Something that is legal is what is, it doesn't necessarily mean what it ought to be. We have to convince people it's immoral, otherwise if we went the legality approach we would just sound like a bunch of crackpots.


Post 22

Sunday, August 6, 2006 - 9:57amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Well, then I'm really curious about the former IRS agents he interviewed who said there is no law, because they obviously would've known about the Code, and considered that when making their statement.  But I won't go on defending a movie I haven't seen--I'll just wait till I can see it for myself.

Edit:  I agree about the need to convince people it's immoral, by the way.

(Edited by Ben Hoffman on 8/06, 10:03am)


Post 23

Friday, August 11, 2006 - 8:57amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

 What does this mean? Does it mean juries have the right to change the law in a way that destroys individual rights? No I don't agree with this either. I don't think juries should have the right or more accurately the power to become legislators as they decide someone's guilt or innocence.
This is troubling indeed. I will let Mister Jefferson speak for me on this one:

"It is left... to the juries, if they think the permanent judges
are under any bias whatever in any cause, to take on themselves
to judge the law as well as the fact.  They never exercise this
power but when they suspect partiality in the judges; and by the
exercise of this power they have been the firmest bulwarks of
English liberty." --Thomas Jefferson to Abbe Arnond, 1789.

"If the question [before justices of the peace] relate to any point
of public liberty, or if it be one of those in which the judges may
be suspected of bias, the jury undertake to decide both law and
fact." --Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Virginia, 1782.

"I consider trial by jury as the only anchor ever yet imagined by
man, by which a government can be held to the principles of its
constitution." --Thomas Jefferson to Thomas Paine, 1789.

"The juries [are] our judges of all fact, and of law when they choose it." --Thomas Jefferson to Samuel Kercheval, 1816. ME 15:35

Jefferson understood that juries are simply another weapon against bad laws and corrupt legislators and judges. Give up this principle, and nothing else matters.


Post 24

Friday, August 11, 2006 - 9:14amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I AM NOT AN ATTORNEY.

A good book on the subject of tax protesting is Lynn Johnston's Who's Afraid of the IRS?
 
It is long out of print. I got mine at least ten years away from Loompanics Unlimited.

Personally, tax protesting isn't something I recommend. There are other, less risky things you can do. The days of socialism are numbered for other reasons anyway.

I AM NOT AN ATTORNEY.

 
 


Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Post 25

Monday, August 14, 2006 - 9:40amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I don't think it's technically possible to be an anarchist and an Objectivist.  Maybe an anarchist could agree with some of Objectivist philosophy, but not all of it.  I'm pretty sure that Rand's views on government--that it is meant to protect individual rights, and "set man free from men"--precluded anarchism.  Under anarchism, use of force to attain one's ends (via stealing, killing, etc) would not be illegal, correct?
Since in Rand's ideal society, there would be no taxation, and the only thing that seperates Government from a free-market institution is the use of cooercive force, I consider her ideal "government" to be anarchist at heart.



Post 26

Wednesday, December 27, 2006 - 1:27pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Based on false principles. It was ratified. We are not fighting progressive income tax on the basis that it is unconstitutional, but that it is immoral. One is an example of cultural change, the other is an example of political and/or legal change. I would prefer cultural change; so would Rand.

Andy.

Post to this threadBack one pagePage 0Page 1


User ID Password or create a free account.