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Wednesday, July 11, 2007 - 5:17pmSanction this postReply
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The shake-up is part of a fresh attempt to improve community relations and avoid offending Muslims, adopting a more “consensual” tone than existed under Tony Blair.

Oh, sure. That'll work.  Unfortunately, it isn't possible not to offend Muslims. 

Just ask "Rage Boy."




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Post 1

Wednesday, July 11, 2007 - 8:57pmSanction this postReply
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Gordon Brown has got to be the biggest politically correct pussy to ever be Prime Minister of the UK.

Post 2

Wednesday, July 11, 2007 - 9:21pmSanction this postReply
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I most heartily object to the use of the term Big Pussy as a derogatory epithet. Brown is a little prick.

Post 3

Thursday, July 12, 2007 - 9:22amSanction this postReply
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I think we ought to be more reasoned in this thread. It's easy to criticize politicians for being too politically correct, when being so can muddy the waters of reasoned discourse. However, it's precisely generalized comments like Teresa's (and the support that was given to her comment) that may make Brown's decision an intelligent diplomatic move.

Teresa wrote,"Unfortunately, it isn't possible not to offend Muslims". Her comment was followed by a picture of an enraged Muslim protester. That kind of statement is foolish because it enhances damaging and untrue stereotype of Muslims, in general, as terrorists, when in fact *most* Muslims are quite peaceful- particularly those in the UK.

It's the equivalent to calling Catholics, generally speaking, a bunch of war-mongering murderers because the Irish Republican Army is entirely composed of Catholics. If Ian Paisley called on his government to stop using the word Catholic with regard to general (not specific) statements about the war on terror in N. Ireland, it would also be a smart diplomatic move, by seeking to find consensus and recognizing that while all IRA members are Catholics, that only a small subset of all Catholics are IRA members and violent.

While it's appropriate to refer to specific terrorists as Muslim (just like it would be OK to refer to a specific IRA member as Catholic), it's counter-productive to make general statements about terrorism that inherently ties a whole religion to a terrorist movement. What possible reason is there to constantly link the two together, except to fuel hatred of an entire religious population and encourage conflict between religious sects (or West v. East)? Nothing is lost by severing the general verbal link, while Brown throws a kind diplomatic gesture to a group that all too often feels isolated from the West. This is less a nod to political correctness than it is a move to decency and common sense. Any person that feels enraged for Brown's move probably does so out of thoughtless hatred.


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Post 4

Thursday, July 12, 2007 - 3:20pmSanction this postReply
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Dar al Harb

Isl^m is uniquely and undeniably evil, not necessarily for its religious forms - its prayers, dietary restrictions, and holidays - but for its inherently totalitarian political nature.

Yes, there may be some m^slims who are nice people. And many bad things have been done by people of other religions. But sharia (religious dictatorship) and jihad (holy war) are not just optional or aberrations, they are the essence of this murderous political creed.

No sect of this barbarous "religion" abhors violence or accepts the separation of church and state. Jesus said render under to Caesar what is Caesars, render under God what is Gods, he said to love thine enemy, that he who lives by the sword shall perish by the sword, that one should turn the other cheek. He was betrayed by Judas Iscariot (one of the Sicarii, a sect of political assassins) for refusing to lead a military campaign against the Romans.

M^hammad and his successors have consistently preached murder and war in the name of God. No m*slim will deny this.

Political correctness is a craven mentality, and when applied to killers it amounts to a moral sanction. Brown has started off on the worst possible foot. He will only embolden the teaming masses of subhuman beasts whose picture disturbed you. Not calling murderers murderers and war war doesn't change reality, and it is extremely bizarre to hear someone presumably familiar with Rand saying otherwise.

There are many threads on this topic in the general forum, Scott, you may want to read some of them before you comment further. Please don't take this as a personal attack, I believe your motives here may be benevolent. But the koran says what it says, the faithful and their imams and mullahs know it, and for us to pretend otherwise is to lie to ourselves and to condescend to them.

If isl^m (which means submission) wants to reform itself, that's fine with me. Until then, they have declared universal war (dar al harb) against us, which they may do by lies, infiltration, conversion or outright violence. To pretend otherwise is to commit suicide.

Ted Keer


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Post 5

Thursday, July 12, 2007 - 5:13pmSanction this postReply
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Scott,

I think we ought to be more reasoned in this thread.
Me too. In fact, I think that this subject is actually important enough to warrant a 'totally-reasoned debate' (where every empirical assertion is backed by a valid syllogism or sorites). Totally-reasoned debate is slow and tedious but, in muddy matters, washes away the impurities of infected thinking. Scott, here's some of your reasoning ...

It's easy to criticize politicians for being too politically correct, when being so can muddy the waters of reasoned discourse. However, it's precisely generalized comments like Teresa's (and the support that was given to her comment) that may make Brown's decision an intelligent diplomatic move.

... and here's the syllogism required in order to defend it ...

1) If a bunch of folks hold a negative stereotype against a minority, then a context-reactive censorship of language is an intelligent diplomatic move.
2) A bunch of folks hold a negative stereotype against a minority (against Muslim folks).
========================
Therefore, in this context, censorship is an intelligent diplomatic move.


Here's more ...

It's the equivalent to calling Catholics, generally speaking, a bunch of war-mongering murderers because the Irish Republican Army is entirely composed of Catholics.
... and here's the syllogism required in order to defend it ...

1) It's always wrong to blame someone's held religion for the atrocities which they may commit, unless the 2 are ideationally linked.
2) The Muslim religion, like the Catholic religion, has nothing whatsoever to do with the atrocious acts that may be committed by its proponents.
========================
Therefore, it's always wrong to blame Islam for the atrocities that Muslims may commit.


Here's more ...

... it's counter-productive to make general statements about terrorism that inherently ties a whole religion to a terrorist movement. What possible reason is there to constantly link the two together, except to fuel hatred of an entire religious population and encourage conflict between religious sects (or West v. East)?

... and here's the syllogism required in order to defend it ...

1) If a religion is politically and morally benign, then linking it to terrorism only serves to fuel hatred and encourage conflict.
2) Islam is a benign religion which does not fuel any hatred or encourage any kind of conflict in the world (such as between religious sects, or West v. East, for examples).
======================
Therefore, linking Islam to terrorism only serves to fuel hatred and encourage conflict which wouldn't have surfaced otherwise.


Here's more ...

Nothing is lost by severing the general verbal link, while Brown throws a kind diplomatic gesture to a group that all too often feels isolated from the West. This is less a nod to political correctness than it is a move to decency and common sense. Any person that feels enraged for Brown's move probably does so out of thoughtless hatred.
... and here's the sorites required in order to defend this enthymeme ...

1) Nothing is lost by censorship.
2) Muslims, through no fault of their own, "feel" isolated from the West.
3) Censorship which makes Muslims feel more "at home" in those geographical areas or societies where some non-Muslim values are commonly held -- is just common sense.
4) Making some folks "feel better" -- even at the potential expense of others -- is a proper role of government.
4) Folks who disagree with any of the first 4 premises are likely being either thoughtless and/or full of hate.
========================
Therefore, it's right to adopt censorship here, so that more Muslims "feel better" in a geographical area or society where some non-Muslim values are commonly held. 


Scott, I have attempted to distill your reasoning down to its essentials. It is only proper (and fair) that I now ask for your response to my distillation of your reasoning. Please just let me know if I've overstated or understated -- or simply mis-stated -- your case in any way.

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 7/12, 5:18pm)


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Post 6

Thursday, July 12, 2007 - 5:35pmSanction this postReply
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That kind of statement is foolish because it enhances damaging and untrue stereotype of Muslims, in general, as terrorists, when in fact *most* Muslims are quite peaceful- particularly those in the UK.
Yeah, sure they are.

It's the equivalent to calling Catholics, generally speaking, a bunch of war-mongering murderers because the Irish Republican Army is entirely composed of Catholics.
Well, given the Muslim behaviour in France, Germany, Denmark, Philippines, North Africa, all of the Mid East, and important areas of the USA, I'd say your analogy falls flat.  I wish they behaved like Catholics in Ireland, that's for sure.  The "Troubles" have been over for a while now. Didn't you hear?


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Post 7

Thursday, July 12, 2007 - 6:43pmSanction this postReply
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From the Horse's Mouth

"Slay them wherever you find them...Idolatry is worse than carnage...Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme." (Surah 2:190-)

"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it." (Surah 2:216)

"Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people...They desire nothing but your ruin...."(Surah 3:118, 119)

"If you should die or be slain in the cause of God, His forgiveness and His mercy would surely be better than all the riches..." (Surah 3:156-)

"Believers, do not approach your prayers when you are drunk, but wait till you can grasp the meaning of your words..." (Surah 4:43)

"Seek out your enemies relentlessly." (Surah 4:103-)

"Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends." (Surah 5:51)

"Believers, when you encounter the infidels on the march, do not turn your backs to them in flight. If anyone on that day turns his back to them, except it be for tactical reasons...he shall incur the wrath of God and Hell shall be his home..." (Surah 8:12-)

"Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God's religion shall reign supreme." (Surah 8:36-)

"...make war on the leaders of unbelief...Make war on them: God will chastise them at your hands and humble them. He will grant you victory over them..." (Surah 9:12-)

"Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]...until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (Surah 9:27-)

"If you do not fight, He will punish you sternly, and replace you by other men." (Surah 9:37-)

"Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home." (Surah 9:73)

"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." (Surah 9:121-)

"Fight for the cause of God with the devotion due to Him...He has given you the name of Muslims..." (Surah 22:78-)

"Muhammad is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another." (Surah 48:29)


If the Throatslitters can say this openly, spread it in their book and their schools and their places of prayer, why is it rude for us to take them at their word?

Ted Keer

Post 8

Thursday, July 12, 2007 - 6:56pmSanction this postReply
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Ted,

Is Surah just another name for Koran? These passages seem awful familiar to ones which I had read in the Koran, but I seem to have lost my copy of this Muslim holy book.

Ed


Post 9

Thursday, July 12, 2007 - 7:17pmSanction this postReply
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Surah simply means chapter. You are correct. All the quotes are indeed from the Throatslitter's Manual for World Domination.

Lost? Have you looked in your toilet?

(Edited by Ted Keer
on 7/12, 7:18pm)


Post 10

Friday, July 13, 2007 - 1:44amSanction this postReply
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Ted, do you realize what feat you are asking me to accomplish?

Ed
[a cryptic joke]


Post 11

Friday, July 13, 2007 - 2:13amSanction this postReply
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I assume you have an outhouse?

In any case, you can get the text on line, and unless you feel particularly blasphemous or belligerent, you don't need a physical copy to burn, deface, or otherwise molest.

It's funny, I've got a copy, but due to my overriding respect for books, I haven't yet gotten around to drawing obscene depictions of hamhead therein.

Ted

Post 12

Friday, July 13, 2007 - 3:39amSanction this postReply
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I have a copy of the "Throatslitter's Manual,"  used for reference.  

Post 13

Friday, July 13, 2007 - 9:09amSanction this postReply
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I assume you have an outhouse?
I think that you got the joke.

;-)


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Post 14

Saturday, July 14, 2007 - 8:36pmSanction this postReply
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Just enforcing the "law."

Meanwhile, over in Africa...

Meanwhile, over in the UK (and her sister, Aussiland)...

Back at the ranch in Pakistan...


Post 15

Sunday, July 15, 2007 - 10:35amSanction this postReply
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~ If the 'peaceful' Muslims showed some antagonism to the 'war-like' Muslims (you know, like the Sunnis and Shiites do regarding each other within the Muslim Community), the 'peaceful' ones might not be tarred by the brush.
~ Their passive acquiescence (other than complaining that they're peaceful) however, begs for them to be now lumped into the same category of...t-h-r-e-a-t; at least by cultural aiding-and-abetting via having more complaints about how they're seen by The West than they have for their human-hating brethren.

     Will the 'peaceful' Muslims please stand up, and say "J'accuse" to their supposedly disavowed 'war-like' ones?

LLAP
J:D

(Edited by John Dailey on 7/15, 10:36am)


Post 16

Sunday, July 15, 2007 - 10:56amSanction this postReply
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A radio commentator (his name slips my mind right now) had some interesting points the other day:

This move of Brown’s is analogous to Churchill banning the word “German” in connection to his country’s conflict in the forties. After all, many Germans were in England and most were peaceful people. And the majority of Germans, even in Germany, were not Nazis.


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Post 17

Monday, July 16, 2007 - 4:35pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks for your responses- some were very interesting. I wish I had time to respond earlier and completely, but here goes.

 

May I first say that I will not defend Islam. What I will say, however, it that there are effective ways of dealing with religious people and there are ineffective ways of dealing with them. We can throw stones at beehives because the damn monsters sting babies and ruin picnics. But throwing stones will cause the worst possible situation for both the picnic-goers and the bees.

 

First, there must be an understanding that there is a fundamental difference between religion and religious texts. If Satanism engulfed 25% of all living people on the globe, and its religious texts advocated cannibalism and eternal warfare, it’s likely that as Satanists integrated into Western societies, their religion would change with them, taking on more Western values to the point that the religion as practiced would bear little, if any, semblance to the literal translation of the original holy texts or their brethren in unreformed and backwards cultures elsewhere in the world.

 

Likewise, take a look at polls of Muslims in the U.S., U.K. and other areas of Western Europe. The far majority believe that terrorism is unjustified under any circumstances. The far majority support representative democracies and freedom of religion. The far majority are law-abiding citizens, and in the U.S. they are also, on average, more wealthy than the average citizen. While many criticize Islam in general, they fail to recognize that Islam takes on many faces, and that most Western Muslims are more likely to fall on our side than the terrorists. NO religion is static, sticking only to the original literal interpretation of their texts. How many of you would criticize Christianity for references to the four corners of the globe? How many Christians are still preaching a flat Earth? And, in spite of Jesus’ call for peace, how many deaths were directly linked to Christianity *as practiced* at various times in history. That’s why it’s more important to see how religion is practiced than it is to what the original texts say. According to their Book of Order, Presbyterians still believe in predestination, but few would defend that dogma in a U.S. church (Korean Presbyterianism would be a different case, however).

 

So, what point am I making? In short, some view Islam, as originally written, as an evil, violent faith inimical to Western values. However, Islam as practiced in the West today tends to side with our values- not always, but most of the time. To turn our backs on these people who support freedom and to lump them in with bloodthirsty terrorists only makes them more likely to cut themselves off from our values and embrace the destruction wreaked by radicals in other states. By acknowledging that freedom-loving Muslims in the West will be welcomed by our states and people is the best way to ensure they don’t jump to the other side.

(Edited by Scott Scott Richard Monroe on 7/16, 5:07pm)


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Post 18

Monday, July 16, 2007 - 5:33pmSanction this postReply
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Scott:

     Re your analogy of 'throwing stones at bees because they ruin picnics and sting babies', all I gotta say is:

These 'bees' purposefully murderously bomb & maim babies (ok; theyr'e democratically indiscriminate on that), behead for the sake of newscasts, and, indeed, do their own literal 'stone-throwing' at each other for disagreeing with the stone-throwers' 'authorities.'

---> If military 'stones' don't work, how about some military DDT? <---

I'm sure the Israelis are already very-seriously thinking down this line.

LLAP
J:D


Post 19

Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 11:38amSanction this postReply
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Tell the old house wife down the street--to her face--along with the grocer, the stockbroker and the postman that they are murderous, baby-maiming terrorists because they go to a mosque once a week, despite their pride in America and their love of peace and liberty. Tell them that they are irrational hotheads who would murder journalists before allowing them to publish anti-Islamic articles, despite their belief in the freedom of the press. Tell them they're savages who would tear each other's throats out if they muttered a heretical phrase, despite their belief in the freedom of speech and religion, and their willingess to defend those rights with their lives. Tell them that their sons, who are soldiers fighting and dying for freedom in Iraq, are treasonous turncoats despite their allegiance to the U.S. and their ideological commitment to the Constitution. Then wonder why they call such opinions ignorant, hateful bigotry and walk away with righteous indignation.

The fact that a Muslim in Iraq shoots an innocent civilian does not therefore make every other Muslim in the world their accomplice in crime. However, to treat every Muslim as such will certainly increase the chances that they will become the irrational, hot-headed extremists that you so passionately despise.


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