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Post 40

Monday, September 10, 2007 - 10:57pmSanction this postReply
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Joe, thank you for your response. I will reply when I have more time ...

Ed


Post 41

Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - 8:43pmSanction this postReply
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Joe,

If neo-conservativism is an ideology of some sort, then it's the ideology that makes people neo-cons.  So what is this ideology?
The teachings of Leo Strauss.

And let me take this "slander through innuendo" route to the extreme, in order to see if it holds up. Sometimes evaluations of things -- like someone's definition or method or personal "take" -- are made in kind of a comfort zone, and when subject to "extreme reality" they crumble because they aren't really true (even though they seem to be true in a "comfortable" context).

An example of this might be the old flat-earth argument: If the earth were round, then resting balls would roll -- because of the earth's concavity. At short-sighted and narrow-minded glance, it would seem to be that the only way that a ball won't roll is if the earth is flat. The un-integrated fact of gravity being such a thing as to be best envisioned as a force pulling from the center of a mass of a larger object; instead of a force pulling "downward" -- as it would be with early flat-earth arguments -- proves flat-earthers absurd in their observations.

How about my 4 main tenets of neoconservatism? What do they look like when integrated with concrete facts (actual persons being labelled as neocons)?

=======================
-Have Bush, Cheney, and Karl Rove worked to strengthen government (giving the "man in charge" more powers)?

-Have Bush, Cheney, and Karl Rove made use of Noble Lies?

-Do Bush, Cheney, and Karl Rove claim to hold key, core, religious values; but act in opposition to those values?

-Have Bush, Cheney, and Karl Rove been involved in (government or private sector) imperialism and plunder, related to nation building?
=======================
If you answered yes to 3 of the 4 questions above, then you might be governed by a NeoCon.

;-)

Ed




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Post 42

Thursday, September 13, 2007 - 1:51amSanction this postReply
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Ed, your latest post doesn't help.  Simply saying "the teaching of Leo Strauss" only suggests that you aren't able to give a precise definition.

Again, I have to say that if you can't even come up with a good definition, something that really explains the essentials and differentiates it from others, it's not being used to intellectually identify anything.  It's being used as a form of slander or insult.

It's fine for a word to also have negative connotations.  If we called someone a statist, socialist, welfare-statist, fascist, racist, collectivist, etc., there would be negative connotations.  But we'd primarily be making an intellectual identification of the person's ideology, and the negative part would come from our evaluation of that ideology.  Neocon implies some kind of horrible monster, but does not do a good job at all when it comes to actual identification.  And you haven't improved it.

Democrats believe in noble lies, pretending to be religious, and big government.  If 3/4 is all it takes, then why aren't you calling all politicians "neocons".

If the nation building is the important thing, than state it clearly.  Call someone a nation-builder, or something.

And if it doesn't take all four, then why are those part of the definition?  If neo-con is supposed to be a proper noun, identifying those people who explicitly follow the neo-conservative philosophy (i.e., the teachings of Leo Strauss), how many of the people who are called neo-cons actually do?  How many have read his works, and agree with it all?

The way "neo-con" is used, the term seems to refer to evil white men bent on world domination.  Selling blood for oil.  All getting kickbacks from Haliburton.  Whatever.  It's just an insult.  Even the way you've approach it is a list of random attributes that if any person displays one or more of them, they're a neo-con.

Clarity needs to be our concern.  We need a definition based on essentials, which a clear ability to integrate and to differentiate.  We don't have that.  So why the desire to keep using this anti-intellectual slur?


Post 43

Thursday, September 13, 2007 - 9:28pmSanction this postReply
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Joe,

We need a definition based on essentials, which [affords us with] a clear ability to integrate and to differentiate.  We don't have that.  So why the desire to keep using this anti-intellectual slur?
I would only say that I have a desire to make needed distinction. If I haven't accomplished that so far in defining the label NeoCon, then there are 2 options:

(1) stop using the term -- because unclear words tarnish the understanding of anything when they're used in speech of it (even though a part of reality may then go unidentified, something which also tarnishes understandings)
(2) define the term better

My purpose here is (2). You have helped me get closer to that, by holding my feet to the fire. But you seem to want to thwart my purpose, regardless of as much help as you have been to it.

Ed


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