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Post 0

Saturday, August 25, 2007 - 10:30pmSanction this postReply
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I'm with AAI on this one. Think Rand. Think about how the following quotes relate to our current NeoCon strategy:

"... evil is impotent and has no power but that which we let it extort from us."

"... that evil was the irrational, the blind, the anti-real--and that the only weapon of its triumph was the willingness of the good to serve it."

"Whenever evil wins, it is only by default: by the moral failure of those who evade the fact that there can be no compromise on basic principles."

"In any compromise between food and poison, it is only death that can win. In any compromise between good and evil, it is only evil that can profit."

"The truly and deliberately evil men are a very small minority; it is the appeaser who unleashes them on mankind; it is the appeaser's intellectual abdication that invites them to take over. When a culture's dominant trend is geared to irrationality, the thugs win over the appeasers. When intellectual leaders fail to foster the best in the mixed, unformed, vacillating character of people at large, the thugs are sure to bring out the worst. When the ablest men turn into cowards, the average men turn into brutes."

Let me finish with 2 questions for those who wish to think about this issue:
Is Islam evil "enough" and are NeoConservatists (Hippies of the Right) compromising "enough" to fit in with the above quotes, effectively rewording them thusly? ...


"... [Islam] is impotent and has no power but that which [the NeoCons] let it extort from us."

"... that [Islam] was the irrational, the blind, the anti-real--and that the only weapon of its triumph was the willingness of the [NeoCons] to serve it."

"Whenever [Islam] wins, it is only by default: by the moral failure of [the NeoCons] who evade the fact that there can be no compromise on basic principles."

"In any compromise between food and poison, it is only death that can win. In any compromise between [NeoCons] and [Islam], it is only [Islam] that can profit."

"The truly and deliberately [IslamoFascist] men are a very small minority; it is the [NeoCon] who unleashes them on mankind; it is the [NeoCon's] intellectual abdication that invites them to take over. When a culture's dominant trend is geared to irrationality, the [Mullahs] win over the [Neocons]. When [NeoCons] fail to foster the best in the mixed, unformed, vacillating character of people at large, the [Mullahs] are sure to bring out the worst. When the [NeoCons] turn into cowards, the average men turn into [suicide bombers]."


How's that for food for thought?

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 8/26, 8:59am)


Post 1

Sunday, August 26, 2007 - 7:13amSanction this postReply
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Totally true. The  *(formerly, I had posted "Neocons") sold arms, trained factions, fed our enemies/allies, including Osama and the Taliban ( How naive we are) for years to build ramshackled, absoulutely dubious "alliances" that explode on the twin towers and yet, here we go again ! Then the  *(formerly, "Neocons"as above) try to scare US about this threat ? 
* I really want to understand all that goes here* better. I know it was a group effort. What is it that brought them all together to sanction these policies in the face of the past?

(Edited by Gigi P Morton on 8/26, 11:37am)


Post 2

Sunday, August 26, 2007 - 10:11amSanction this postReply
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Heffalumps & Woozles

While I share the concern over the proposed arms sales, I fail to see the benefit in the continued use of the undefined epithet neocon. It is used as a term of abuse by the left. Those on the right who call themselves neocons tend to espouse an active anti-dictatorial foreign policy. Neither Rumsfeld nor Powell were neocons. Did that make them acceptable?

These weapons will not be sold without the assent of our "liberal defeatocrat" congress, so why not bemoan the defeatocrats? Because that term, just like neocon, is an ill-defined epithet, not a valid concept.

Ted


Post 3

Sunday, August 26, 2007 - 11:08amSanction this postReply
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Ted,           
         You are right. I believe Ed might have been using "Neocon" as one example or maybe not ,and I ,without really thinking, went to town and stuck a noodle in my hat and called it macaroni, which is lazy of me..but definitely unintentional. I will work to correct this. Sincerely

(Edited by Gigi P Morton on 8/26, 11:55am)


Post 4

Sunday, August 26, 2007 - 1:26pmSanction this postReply
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Ted,

While I don't think that you meant it intentionally, there is a certain destructiveness in the keeping of words (like NeoCon) "fuzzy." There is a certain evil that prefers this kind of vagueness or ambiguity. It's a great rhetorical discussion-stopper: If you can't define your term, you don't get to use it.

Ted, in the absence of a better definition, I want to put forth an operational one. With this, of course, comes still another conundrum, as there are folks who despise operational definitions themselves (usually -- and also -- those who end up furthering the darkness, confusion, and destruction in the world). Let's call them and their ilk cunning linguists and move on to the subject matter at hand.

;-)

In the absence of a better definition of NeoCon, I propose that the term is utilized to refer to 2 cross-secting groups of folks ...

(1) Irving Kristol enthusiasts
(2) those who signed the 1997 PNAC Statement of Principles (Dick Cheney, Scooter Libby, Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, etc)

How does that sound, Ted (or would you rather keep the term "murky")?

Ed


Post 5

Sunday, August 26, 2007 - 7:01pmSanction this postReply
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Ted,

The reason that I think it is important to have a name (like "NeoCon") for our current political ideology is because it breaks with American tradition. For instance, to my knowledge, preemptive war (along with at least a dozen other executed policies and procedures by our current Administration) is a "New American Behavior." And I would say that when there's a bunch of new things going on, then there has probably been a change in the ideology of the leaders (at least, historically). This is what Rand meant when she said that philosophy has the power to shape history -- and that looking to political acts uncovers underlying philosophies. 

Ed

p.s. Here's some trivia for everyone:
Besides obvious things like age, gender, and being a presidential cabinet member (or equivalent); what do Dick Cheney, Scooter Libby, Donald Rumsfeld, and Paul Wolfowitz all have in common with each other?

Hint: The correct answer would be untrue if I had asked the question as late as a mere few years ago -- but as the saying goes, scooters are slow.

;-)

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 8/26, 7:06pm)


Post 6

Sunday, August 26, 2007 - 7:24pmSanction this postReply
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Ted, add the term "activist judge(s)" to my pet peeve of loosely defined terms. It's used by both sides to deith.fine any justice who renders a decision they disagree with.

Post 7

Sunday, August 26, 2007 - 7:27pmSanction this postReply
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The Hypothesis is Unnecessary

What would it benefit me to keep the word "neocon" murky?* I am happy with an consistent use of a term that is not defined by non-essentials. I happen to think that this may be a case of a word that is, unfortunately, defined by non-essentials. But in any case, the argument works without it. One can criticize the sale without needing to mention neo-cons or blaming Billy Kristol. It won't be him handing over the missiles, or a cabal of his followers alone allowing the sale to go through. Last time I looked, Peikoff's pals were in charge of both houses.

*Here's my foreign policy in a nutshell, with a ringer for the sleepy:

Withdraw from the UN.
Put NATO on a war footing or withdraw.
End all immigration from & review or expel all non-citizens from m*slim & Arab nations with exceptions on a case-by-case basis.
Prepare for War with China and Russia.
Wave Noriega in front of Chavez.
Legalize Drugs to end the subsidization of Narcs in S. America & C. Asia.
Remove all barriers to domestic nuclear and oil production.
Re-institute the draft for a rotating two-year call-up for all 16-40 y/o, regardless of education, health or sex & remove the age limit in regards to known anarcho-capitalist and Libertarian subversives.
Get cracking on that Missile Defense.
Harden our ports and coastal cities. Two well-placed anti-aircraft guns in DC & NY could have prevented 9-11.
Negotiate a customs and immigration union with Canada and Mexico on our terms, or start building those walls.
Prepare in earnest for the militarization of space and the defense of the internet.
Offer full military scholarships through the post-doc level for Russian, Arab, and South- and East-Asian linguists, specialists and spies.
Pursue an immediate policy of containment against isl@m in Africa and elsewhere as we did versus the Communists during the cold war. If the Saudis want to be friends, they can privatize, liberalize & secularize their state, else let them fall from within or without.

And so on.

I don't know if this makes me a neocon.

Ted Keer

(Edited by Ted Keer on 8/27, 11:59am)


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Post 8

Sunday, August 26, 2007 - 8:05pmSanction this postReply
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                    Speaking of new things going on, the reason for the premptive war today, as espoused by Bush in the last couple of days, was to "set a precedence." (!) . Ayi Ayi Ayi ! as my grandmother used to say.
                    I do still want to address the culpability of the "liberal defeatocrat congress" as well as those NeoCons, who placed us in Iraq in the first place with ,apparently, no intention or plan on getting us out, when I pass my judgements mentally of this (weapons sales and aid) action.
But, yes, when refering to all of those above in Ed's post #4: NeoCons
                     I don't know the trivia answer, waiting with bated breath.... :)
 Ted, Your foreign policy sounds great (though I have an aversion to re-instituting the draft).   

(Edited by Gigi P Morton on 8/27, 8:40am)


Post 9

Sunday, August 26, 2007 - 8:55pmSanction this postReply
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Ted, you're a NeoCon alright.

But I still love you, anyway.

;-)

Ed


Post 10

Sunday, August 26, 2007 - 9:00pmSanction this postReply
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I do still want to address the culpability of the "liberal defeatocrat congress" as well as those NeoCons ...
Excellent Gigi! That's the underlying value which I'm seeking here, in a word: "culpability." All leaders, even American ones, need to be held accountable for the harm or good fortune that their actions cause -- just like regular folk are.

Ed


Post 11

Sunday, August 26, 2007 - 9:13pmSanction this postReply
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Ed , Where do we donate for the purchase and delivery of the AS book drop ? You know, with Ted's defense and your (National lottery) offense, you two would make the perfect running mates !

Post 12

Sunday, August 26, 2007 - 10:26pmSanction this postReply
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Gigi,

While I can be pretty certain that if the 'Ted & Ed Ticket' ran (and won), then America would basically become a land with clear blue skies and rivers flowing with milk and honey (i.e., that we could run this country better than the current commander-in-chief ever has since taking office) -- I get a little machismo twinge when you refer to the 2 of us as "perfect ... mates."

Ahem!

;-)

Ed
[No offense meant for the orientation joke, Ted!]

;-)


Post 13

Sunday, August 26, 2007 - 10:44pmSanction this postReply
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If nominated, I will not run..

Ed, the fact that you are not as masculine as I am does not trouble me. I fear I'd be the Fred Thompson to your John Edwards. (Indeed, why, exactly, was your sister stealing your clothes?)

But I have no desire to serve in congress or the executive branch. A judgeship would be more to my tastes.

Gigi, what could you possibly find objectionable about my stand on the draft?

Also, I do not accept the "pre-emptive war" argument or justification. Saddam was in breach of the terms of the 1991 armistice and we had a duty to remove him according to the terms of that treaty and the president's oath of office and the terms of the constitution regarding treaties. The fact that the administration keeps making bad excuses for doing the right thing in a damn sloppy way doesn't make it the wrong thing to have done.

Finally, please don't call me a neocon without explicitly defining the term and giving the criteria I meet. I consider myself a minarchist libertarian hawk - a classic liberal in favor of free trade and a strong national defense and assertion of our national interests. I am old enough to remember when I agreed 100% with Rand about the communists and I see the isl@mist threat as no different except worse.

Ted Keer

(Edited by Ted Keer on 8/26, 10:47pm)


Post 14

Monday, August 27, 2007 - 5:46amSanction this postReply
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Ted,

I fear I'd be the Fred Thompson to your John Edwards. (Indeed, why, exactly, was your sister stealing your clothes?)
[laughing] That was a good one, Ted! Though you didn't ask about my sister's response to the type of physical threat she received that day -- let's just say that she never even thought to touch a piece of my clothing again. And in her shoes (if you pardon the pun!), I would have responded (to that threat) exactly the same.  ;-)

The fact that the administration keeps making bad excuses for doing the right thing in a damn sloppy way doesn't make it the wrong thing to have done.
Good point.

Finally, please don't call me a neocon without explicitly defining the term and giving the criteria I meet.
Okay, but remember, this is my first stab at this (so there'll probably be errors) ...


NeoCons: A heuristic definition (4 key points & an odd notation)

-neocons believe in a strong government, but only one which is administered by the right mind-set (Plato's philosopher-king; a man in charge who'll do the right thing for the Great Nation)

-neocons see value in the Noble Lie (because philosophers know better, and it's good to trick people into doing the right thing)

-influential neocons aren't appropriately religious, but claim to be so (because religion is a good tool to trick people into doing the right thing)

-neocons see value in imperialism and plunder (as long as it comes from nations who weren't doing the right thing)

-neocons see value in Wilsonian nation-building

-for some as-yet-to-be-understood reason, neocons tend to be disgruntled Jewish liberals (Kristol said he was a liberal mugged by reality; David Horowitz said something strikingly similar)
Ted, that's the best that I could come up with on the spot. In time, be sure, I'll refine this bugger. To make it more consonant with the reality of the neocon ideology currently in charge of our nation. To make it more differentiating from all other leadership ideologies. To make it more useful in understanding contemporary political philosophy and how we could best move forward from where we are now.

Where you fit in (as a neocon) stems mostly from your support of a mitigated draft and from your implicit acceptance of the prestigious role for the United States -- known best as ...

Team America: The World Police ... [loud, synchronized] F#$%-Yeah!!

;-)

Ed
[thinks he can beat you at arm-wrestling]


Post 15

Monday, August 27, 2007 - 8:31amSanction this postReply
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Ted,                            
                The excuse making is what I'm talking about and the sloppiness (I repaired my "getting us" to Iraq by adding"apparently, no intention or plan on getting us out"). Why did'nt we declare war on Irag regarding the breach of that treaty ? The new one is "We are there because we wanted to set a presedence." and all the excuses, as to why were still there, having to do with nation building. Where is Osama in any of this? ( I like the idea of privateers taking care of this criminal and his people.)
                 I have a problem with re-instituiting the draft because there will be people who do not belong in the military and will slow others down, those people do not want to be there . It will be like having a mixed group of the able bodied and the handicapt. I have friends in the military and people retired from the military and ,as you have said, lots of people enjoy being in the military. I was all set to enlist in the navy when I was hit (I was on foot) by a drunk hit and run driver 19 years ago.I have a metal rod in my leg and my shoulder was crushed, so, no dice.
                Ted and Ed ! Ed and Ted! Ted and Ed! Ed and Ted!   :p -HooRah!

(Edited by Gigi P Morton on 8/27, 9:28am)


Post 16

Monday, August 27, 2007 - 9:48amSanction this postReply
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Ted said:

Withdraw from the UN. - Agree 100%
Put NATO on a war footing or withdraw - Why?  Who are they going to fight?
End all immigration & review or expel all non-citizens from m*slim & Arab nations with exceptions on a case-by-case basis. - Agree - I assume you mean all immigration from muslim/arab nations.


Prepare for War with China and Russia. - This is not wise - China is already being coopted, and they are both together far weaker than we are already.  No need, and they have no capacity to match the US any time soon.  We do need to keep our forces prepared and up-to-date, though.  This is something Rummy was actually very good at, he helped make the armed forces structured better vs these kind of forces (but not others)

Wave Noriega in front of Chavez. - sounds good - hear his latest?  Gifts to everyone, but no one calls him on the fact that the "gifts" are stolen loot!

Legalize Drugs to end the subsidization of Narcs in S. America & C. Asia. - Agree
Remove all barriers to domestic nuclear and oil production. - Agree

Re-institute the draft for a rotating two-year call-up for all 16-40 y/o, regardless of education, health or sex & remove the age limit in regards to known anarcho-capitalist and Libertarian subversives. - Is this a joke?  why?

Get cracking on that Missile Defense. - probably not necessary, but we should keep pushing forward on it anyway.

Harden our ports and coastal cities. Two well-placed anti-aircraft guns in DC & NY could have prevented 9-11. - yes

Negotiate a customs and immigration union with Canada and Mexico on our terms, or start building those walls. - yes

Prepare in earnest for the militarization of space and the defense of the internet. - not necessary, you are being paranoid

Offer full military scholarships through the post-doc level for Russian, Arab, and South and East Asian linguists and spies. - ok

Pursue an immediate policy of containment against isl@m in Africa and elsewhere as we did versus the Communists during the cold war. If the Saudis want to be friends, they can privatize, liberalize & secularize their state, else let them fall from within or without.

I think we need to push for engagement - its a better outcome - rather than assume the worst.  Different situation from the commies



Post 17

Monday, August 27, 2007 - 11:09amSanction this postReply
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The Sleeping Eagle

The entire purpose of NATO is a mutual defense pact. If not, it amounts to us subsidizing the leftist West European economies so that they can divert defense spending (now under 1% of their GDP's) to social welfare spending which has lured the m*slim underclass to their lands. London is more than 20% m*slim, 80% of which is not opposed to sharia or jihad. M*slims openly insult the British on the streets of their own capital as "infidel dogs." (Don't take my word for it, try helping a m*slim mother carry her baby stroller up a flight of steps and see what happens.) The most popular name for newborn boys in all of Western Europe is Mohammed. Read Mark Steyn's America Alone for all the military, welfare, and birth statistics.

NATO should help us with the "Iraqi Surge" (which even pre-war Democratic critics of the Administration and even Hillary Clinton are calling a success) or we should crack heads. If the French and the Germans and the rest of Old Europe wants to start paying for its own defense, it might do them some good.

As for Russia and China, preparing for war does not mean failing to engage. Reagan's two slogans were "Peace through Strength" and "Negotiate but Verify." We already know that the Chinese have tested anti-satellite weapons, that they are increasing military spending by more than 10% a year, that the Russians were in Iraq - we killed their agents during the beginning of the war. There is no conflict between our talking and our carrying a big stick. From Putin's assassinations carried out on NATO soil to the Chinese downing of our spy-plane just after Bush took office the policy of these countries to test and provoke is so obvious that I find no need to document their acts at length.

As for the draft, reread the asterisked part of post 7 carefully.

Oh, and given that I am anti-Wilsonian, do not advocate the big lie, even for noble causes, do not pretend to religion, and do not wish for a philosopher king, I assume I am not a neocon?

Ted Keer

Post 18

Monday, August 27, 2007 - 11:44amSanction this postReply
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CTS (chuckle to self) ;)

Post 19

Monday, August 27, 2007 - 6:24pmSanction this postReply
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More trivia help:
Which United States Administration has the American record for the highest number of high-ranking member departures somehow associated with investigations into (possible) corruption?

Now, take some time with this one -- because I, myself, may indeed be wrong about the answer. This new question was only meant as a hint to the first trivia question involving 4 members who are -- somehow or another -- associated with the political ideology of Irving Kristol.

Ed


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