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Saturday, November 17, 2007 - 1:22pmSanction this postReply
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Among the interesting and disturbing comments from the "person on the street" are those to the CourierPress as well as to the Usenet newsgroup rec.collecting.coins that display an abysmal lack of understanding of what money is. 

In George Orwell's 1984, the state's "newspeak" continually reduces the vocabulary of the populace toward the goal of producing a society of "ducktalkers" who can vocalize the words of the state without having the noise originate in consciousness. 




Post 1

Saturday, November 17, 2007 - 4:12pmSanction this postReply
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This raid is truly cause for alarm. I've contacted my Federal Rep. and Senator's about it. Spread the word.



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Post 2

Saturday, November 17, 2007 - 8:46pmSanction this postReply
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Any Liberty Dollar certificate holders have the option to sign on for a case action lawsuit to see this through. I plan to donate to the legal fund, myself. It's time to fight back otherwise we've given these thugs everything they wanted and more.

-- Brede



Post 3

Saturday, November 17, 2007 - 10:08pmSanction this postReply
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This is a very interesting case.  I wonder if the feds intend to prosecute anyone for a violation of the law, or will they be content with the millions in loot they've confiscated.  Having also taken all of the records and computers is there any way the owners can even determine what exactly is missing or do they have to rely on the honesty of the feds in making a full and accurate account of what was taken?  There are laws prohibiting competing private currencies, but I'm not sure this is what the liberty dollars were all about since they could not be used as legal tender.  There are many businesses which store precious metals for clients or mint bullion type coins.  In order to act as a competing currency I would think they'd need to be denominated with a dollar value.  I'm not sure that's the case here.  I doubt anyone will be successfully convicted of anything, but I also doubt the owners or customers will ever see their money again.



Post 4

Sunday, November 18, 2007 - 12:21amSanction this postReply
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Steven Pilotte: There are laws prohibiting competing private currencies, but I'm not sure this is what the liberty dollars were all about since they could not be used as legal tender. 

Could you cite such a law from the USC?  I think I know the USC fairly well but it is a large body of words, so maybe you could help me.

Also, are you clear on what legal tender is?

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 11/18, 5:43am)




Post 5

Sunday, November 18, 2007 - 12:29amSanction this postReply
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I have a Liberty Dollar, denominated as $20.00, which is what I paid for it.

The Fed's confiscation is a case of pure, unalloyed theft. They have simply used their authority to rob the owners of their precious metals, who're unlikely ever to get them back. Is the FBI now a bureaucratic kleptocracy? What ever happened to the Fourth Amendment against unreasonable search and seizure? The Bill of Rights — the first 10 Amendments to the Constitution — is now effectively a dead letter.

- Bill



Post 6

Sunday, November 18, 2007 - 5:44amSanction this postReply
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From a current Ebay auction:

"This is not money affiliated with the US Govt nor mint nor Fed in any way (therefore not a "coin"), instead this is REAL silver money, an alternative private currency, Power to the PEOPLE as the Federal Reserves' MONOPOLY is bing broken by the spread of REAL money by different professions and businesses and individuals"
 
See the pretty coin here

(Hello, anyone see why the Feds may have been threatened?)





Post 7

Sunday, November 18, 2007 - 12:25pmSanction this postReply
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I've mentioned here (RoR) before the similar raid of Anthony L. Hargis and Co., here in the OC.  Hargis was never charged with any specific crime, but was incarcerated for 6 months while the various federal agencies confiscated all the assets of his company, to the tune of millions of dollars. 

The IRS then tried to accuse all 1,100 of his investors and/or customers with being tax evaders or resisters, without ever naming specific individuals, amounts, specific crimes, or witnesses, or presenting evidence other than the material that Hargis had posted on his website, declaring with supporting documents that the Federal Reserve was illegal and bankrupt and that the IRS and the income tax itself were similarly illegal.

Altho none of the agencies ever made their cases against Hargis, or ALH&Co., so far as I know, none of the assets were ever returned.  Hargis had always gone to court, whenever accused in prior cases, and had always defeated the IRS, etc., as he was a stickler about following the letter of the law.  This time, however, the feds had the support of an act passed early in 2004 which allows virtually any federal agent from any of a host of agencies to demand all the customer records from virtually any business, without a warrant or any court order (to protect us from terrorism, BTW).  When Hargis demanded a warrant, the judge sent him to prison, telling him that he would get out when he complied.  He was finally released when they had wiped out his last assets.

I also have a few of the Liberty Dollars - purchased at ALH&Co. long before Ron Paul was put on the face.




Post 8

Sunday, November 18, 2007 - 3:58pmSanction this postReply
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Phil Osborn:I've mentioned here (RoR) before the similar raid of Anthony L. Hargis and Co ... I also have a few of the Liberty Dollars - purchased at ALH&Co. long before Ron Paul was put on the face.

Hargis and his "Liberty Dollars" is not affiliated with NORFED and their "Liberty Dollars."
12. Anthony Hargis Slam… NORFED is usually not slammed by someone outside of the controlled establishment, but apparently that is the case. NORFED’s ever increasing and vigilant national network has forwarded a letter that is now being included with their statement from the Anthony Hargis organization. Fraught with negativity and misinformation, the letter is a very sorry piece from someone who should be working with NORFED. It makes one wonder about Mr. Hargis’ motive and the viably of his own organization. http://www.libertydollar.org/information/nlfiles/2000V2N09.pdf
About the Hargis Case:
http://www.usdoj.gov/tax/txdv04785.htm
Parliament originated as a body of private men for the purpose of presenting petitions to the king for redress.  Such petitions have always been mandatory on the king.  Originally, if the king or his justices failed to redress a grievance within forty days, the entire nation had a right of violence against the king and his justices until remedy was given.[3]
[3]  Magna Charta, sec. 61
http://www.illuminati-news.com/anthony-hargis-5.htm
More from FindLaw (edit/search for Hargis):
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=7th&navby=case&no=973148



 




Post 9

Monday, November 19, 2007 - 10:26amSanction this postReply
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Phil Osborn wrote,
I also have a few of the Liberty Dollars - purchased at ALH&Co. long before Ron Paul was put on the face.
Interesting. I didn't realize that Ron Paul's face was now on them. The one I have minted in 2005 has the face of the Statue of Liberty on it. They also have a one-ounce gold coin, with a stamped face value of $1000, which they were selling at the spot price, which is now around $800 an ounce plus a 5 to 10 percent premium, depending on volume. Now, of course, you can't buy anything, because all their gold and silver coins have been confiscated. This is the naked and illegal kleptocratic evil of the U.S. government that is not often so brazenly exposed.

- Bill
(Edited by William Dwyer on 11/19, 10:27am)




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Monday, November 19, 2007 - 11:41amSanction this postReply
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I don't understand what is the law that the FBI thinks Liberty Dollar violated? I see commercials all the time for gold, silver pieces, etc. I can't believe these FBI thugs think selling precious metals are now considered illegal?



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Post 11

Monday, November 19, 2007 - 4:29pmSanction this postReply
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Might I play Devil's advocate?

Why were these coins printed with the words USA, "Trust in God" and a "dollar" value? Why not siply give the weight and purity of the coin with the name of the mint? The Feds are implying (according to the NY Sun, which broke the story) that this was a case of counterfeiting. It seems obvious that provoking the Feds to such and action was the intention of the minters.

There is a prima-facie case for counterfeiting, although Federal claims that there has been a two-year "undercover" (!) investigation of this case are beyond Kafkaesque. What seems to matter is, will there be timely charges and a swift trial, and when the Feds lose, will they return the coins?

As for those who want a real private hard currency, why not issue one-pound notes, redeemable in sterling silver? Why not offer one-gram gold coins, 99% pure? Why not find an Arab emirate or a European principality that would be willing to offer such certificates, which they could print at a profit if they coin enough gold at 99% purity but offer them at the cost of gold 99.9% pure? Each coin would make the minter up to a .9% margin, but the coins would find investors because their value, given their hard status, would be in their long term stable value. Heck, if such a plan made money, the US government might even want to get in on it.

I find the government's actions here just about as bumbling and abominable as one could expect, but I have little real sympathy for the minters of these coins whose motivation was clearly not to become economically viable, but rather to provoke the government into a test-case where they would appear the victims. This is what they truly wished to buy and the government has accepted their offer.

Ted Keer



Post 12

Monday, November 19, 2007 - 5:18pmSanction this postReply
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So I guess this company is the Rosa Parks of central banking laws, eh?



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Post 13

Monday, November 19, 2007 - 7:30pmSanction this postReply
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Debasing Nobility

Rosa Parks didn't dress in white-face and try to muddy the issues by standing part on principle while dressed half in drag. Was the liberty dollar a currency, a novelty, or a provocation? If it was a serious currency, why mimic the dollar unnecessarily? If it was a provocation or a novelty, could it not be construed also then as a fraud against those who might have bought it as an investment?

Again, the way the government has acted in this case is ridiculous, an overreaction of farcical proportions. But one has a fiduciary duty to one's investors not to make their investment into the butt of a bad joke. A true hard currency traded on its own commodity value is one thing. Gold debasing itself by infringing on the brand name of the fiat dollar is a disgrace to that noble metal.

Ted Keer



Post 14

Monday, November 19, 2007 - 8:03pmSanction this postReply
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18 USC 25
United States Code, Title 18, Chapter 25
Section 486.  Uttering coins of gold, silver or other metal.
Whoever, except as authorized by law, makes or utters or passes, or attempts to utter or pass, any coins of gold or silver or other metal, or alloys of metals, intended for use as current money,  whether in the resemblance of coins of the United States or of foreign countries, or of original design, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/casecode/uscodes/18/parts/i/chapters/25/toc.html

.As I explained in lectures to numismatists who think that they can or should collect counterfeit coins, lack of enforcement is not endorsement.  Just because someone else is getting away with breaking the law does not give you the right to do so.  The fact that the police are all downtown at a bank robbery does not entitle you to rob a jewelry store in the suburbs. Whether an art bar or a medal is allowable or actionable may be a judgment call, but it is a judgment that the government is prepared to make. 

In the early 1970s, the government attempted to get the courts to grant them exclusive use of the word "mint."  As a result of action against the coins of Hutt River Principality, the mainstream numismatic media will not accept advertising for any "coin" unless the issuer is a government they recognize.  Only recognized governments can issue "coins" (by definition). 




Post 15

Tuesday, November 20, 2007 - 8:48amSanction this postReply
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Michael, is it your opinion that certificates of ownership in Gold would also be illegal?

Ted




Post 16

Tuesday, November 20, 2007 - 2:45pmSanction this postReply
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TK:  Michael, is it your opinion that certificates of ownership in Gold would also be illegal?

I have no idea. 

In a sense, we do this now on the commodities markets CBOT, The Merc, etc.,  Futures contracts are traded all the time.  But what you are really asking is about the legality of the Liberty Dollar and I have no basis for an opinion.  I know what I believe, but you are asking me what I think anyone else in the goverment thinks.  That is not a feat that I can perform.




Post 17

Tuesday, November 20, 2007 - 5:52pmSanction this postReply
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Oh, Those Golden Grams...?

To be more specific, according to your understanding of the meanings of the terms in the code you cited, if certificates were issued by a commodities broker that were redeemable in a certain weight of gold, would individuals and businesses be able to trade these certificates to purchase other goods? E.g., "You can buy a Ticket from Carthage to Troy on PanAm for $750 or 20 Franklin Commodities Gold Gram Certificates?"

Ted Keer



Post 18

Tuesday, November 20, 2007 - 8:28pmSanction this postReply
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Phil Osborn:I've mentioned here (RoR) before the similar raid of Anthony L. Hargis and Co ... I also have a few of the Liberty Dollars - purchased at ALH&Co. long before Ron Paul was put on the face.

Michael M.:  Hargis and his "Liberty Dollars" is not affiliated with NORFED and their "Liberty Dollars."

Did I say that they were?  I have my own major differences with Hargis, but for a long while, his was one of the most promising libertarian alternative enterprises working for a libertarian utopia.  At times, people affiliated with him or his business would leave an offer on his business desk for coins for sale.  That's how I acquired the Liberty Dollars - which have stamped NORFED on them.  They're very pretty, BTW, and worth considerably more than what I paid for them.

About the Hargis Case:
http://www.usdoj.gov/tax/txdv04785.htm


Yes, that's the position of the Feds, the same people who came in with a huge swat team around 1992, based on the fact that a customer of ALH&Co. was found carrying thousands of dollars in cash, along with violating several minor ordinances.  She was fleeing a boyfriend in a bad relationship and had requested the cash on an emergency basis.  The authorities automatically assume that anything over $400 is drug money and siezed her savings - and her car - on that basis, and then discovered documents tracking the cash back to ALH&Co. in Fountain Valley, the OC.  Naturally they then conducted a raid like something right out of The Untouchables, machine guns, flak jackets, the whole nine yards, bursting through an unlocked door into an office lobby filled with customers in suits doing such criminal business as buying gold or items from Hargis's health food racks.  Hargis took them to court and got everything they seized back.

See my more extensive coverage, based on a quarter century as an ALH&Co. customer by googling on '  "Phil Osborn" Anthony L. Hargis & Co.  .'  I recommend "A Case Study in the Present Danger."

More from FindLaw (edit/search for Hargis):
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=7th&navby=case&no=973148


Note that in the above case, Hargis is not accused of doing anything wrong.  He simply accepted money to be placed into an account, denominated in gold or dollars, and then wrote checks for his customers to pay various expenses as they requested.  It was not his business to inquire into why they were using him for the transactions, nor does the law require in general that a business person investigate his customers to ensure that their money is not stolen or the results of a crime. 

My experience was that I was encouraged by Hargis's office workers to make out "transfer orders" for my utility bills, for example, which would result in checks being cut for a bundle of such bills, sent as a single combined bill to the power, gas, or phone companies.  Hargis made a small percentage on each transaction, which came out to less than the postage and effort of mailing for the customer.  Other customers were out of the country at times, using Hargis as a means of ensuring that mortgage payments, ect., got taken care of in a timely fashion.

As I've stated elsewhere, I'm sure that many of A.L.H. & Co.'s customers were in agreement with his stated positions in opposition to the income tax and the Federal Reserve System, and it is likely that some of them were using his services for concealment of assets against the feds.  However, none of the 1,100 customers who the IRS accused when they siezed his assets were actually charged in that connection. 

The trick is to sieze all of someone's assets so that they cannot afford the legal expenses to fight the case and then just sit on them.  The IRS and other Federal agencies now have the power to sieze just about anything they want under any pretext and then wait for you to sue them and prove that you are innocent of any crime in order to get them back.  So they made all kinds of unsubstantiated claims without ever naming specific persons, crimes or evidence, and then grabbed the money on the basis of those claims and ran.

In most cases, if the defendant has a good case, the authorities will bargain with them and only half of the assets will be stolen, in return for an agreement not to sue in court.  In Hargis's case, they definitely want to make an example, and I see little liklihood of any easy victory.




Post 19

Thursday, November 22, 2007 - 1:57pmSanction this postReply
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The Bureau of Engraving states:

United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues. Foreign gold or silver coins are not legal tender for debts.   However, there is no Federal statute which mandates that private businesses must accept cash as a form of payment. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether or not to accept cash unless there is a State law which says otherwise.
(Emphasis mine.)

This means to me that US businesses can accept any form of payment they wish as long as it is acceptable to both parties.

I think that the Liberty Dollars were raided on the pretext that there was fraud involved.

Sam




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