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Wednesday, December 5, 2007 - 1:07pmSanction this postReply
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This should have read "the second rate holidy celebrating the victory of the Maccabees, the Judean Taliban, is dissected by Hitchens...

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Post 1

Wednesday, December 5, 2007 - 3:09pmSanction this postReply
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Chanukah is just like the rest of the Jewish holidays, summed up as follows: They tried to kill us; they didn't succeed; let's eat! As far as I'm concerned, that's worth celebrating!

In light of Hitchens' malevolent take on Chanukah, I'm reminded of Rand's *benevolent* take on Christmas, which she endorsed as a celebration of good will toward one another. Why can't Chanukah be similar, except that it celebrates perseverance? Works for me.

Happy Chanukah,
Jordan

Post 2

Wednesday, December 5, 2007 - 3:38pmSanction this postReply
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Any excuse......

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Post 3

Wednesday, December 5, 2007 - 6:49pmSanction this postReply
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Christopher Hitchens has to be one of the most antagonistic writers I've ever had the displeasure of reading. As an atheist, this is a very sad thing to report, indeed.

No one can polarize this issue. No one can say, "Oh, the Jews were religious and the Greeks produced Aristotle. Enough said!" To demean the holiday of Hanukkah's roots is already bad enough; ironically, I've always liked the holiday, which is as much about fighting off the yoke of subjugation as it is the "triumph" of irrationality.

Remember, everyone: the Greeks were pretty barbaric. One could argue that the society that valued philosophy was morally greater than the one that valued religious thought, but that is a generalization that should be checked. The Jews are one of the few religious groups that are decidedly less dogmatic and focused on belief than most; the Greeks committed atrocities that hardly can be ignored in light of anything else, included and among these atrocities that they had a taste for warfare and conquering other nations. We can forgive the Greeks: it was the time period. We can forgive the Jews for the same reason.

Ignoring the roots of Hanukkah, to decry a holiday that has become what Christmas has become (i.e. commercialized) is about as anti-life as one can get. Sorry, Mr. Hitchens, that you like to throw around words like "Taliban" for a pretty solitary people who celebrate by playing games and lighting candles.

My god, anti-theism is the epitome of a waste of time.

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Post 4

Thursday, December 6, 2007 - 11:57amSanction this postReply
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Adam Sandler at his best.

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Post 5

Friday, December 7, 2007 - 12:24amSanction this postReply
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The Jewish Zealots were the Aggressors, not at all Innocent Victims


No one was simply killing Jews for being Jews during the time of the Maccabees. Jewish communities were large and thriving and assimilating to Greek customs and philosophy. The Maccabees led a fundamentalist revolt against Jewish authorities whom they found too secular. Assassination was one of their favored means. In effect, they established a religious dictatorship whose closest modern analog is the Taliban. Secular and non-fundamentalist forces continued to exist. The Maccabees were comparatively week in relation to the Taliban. But the precedent they set was followed by the zealots and the sicarii (assassins who killed people in crowds using concealed daggers) and eventually led to the catastrophic Jewish insurrections in the following centuries which Rome put down with its characteristic brutality. There is a school of thought that holds that Judas Iscariot was a member of the sicarii and that he betrayed Jesus when he found out that Jesus repudiated the initiation of force and refused to become the leader of a military revolt.

Chanukkah itself is a bowdlerized celebration that serves as an alternative for Jewish children left out of Christmas celebrations. I doubt many Jewish people inculcate or even know the truly vicious nature of the historical events. The story is kept to the supposed miracle of some oil that burned longer than it should have. And of course Christmas itself is an attempt to replace the pagan Saturnalia and New Year celebrations with an historically unsupported set of "nativity" circumstances having to do with an apparently apocryphal census and some bizarre celestial phenomenon nowhere else recorded. Given the visit of the wise men, (and the angelic visitation to Mary and Joseph's dream) why where Mary and Joseph apparently so ignorant of Jesus' nature? Obviously all these elements were added later, especially for later Christians to support their claim that Jesus' was a member of the messianic house of David.

As it is celebrated, Chanukkah seems quite harmless. But glossing over the Taliban-like aspects of the Maccabees is dishonest. And had they failed, neither Christianity nor Islam would presumably have arisen in the forms they did, if at all.

The Maccabean revolt is one of history's great tragedies.

I don't see any point in upsetting little children, but adults should know the ugly truth.

Ted Keer
(Edited by Ted Keer on 12/07, 1:12pm)


Post 6

Friday, December 7, 2007 - 7:36amSanction this postReply
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Hello Ted, regarding the origins of Christianity have you ever read Caesars Messiah by Joseph Atwill? http://www.caesarsmessiah.com/summary.html

 

I am not a scholar on the subject but Atwill has a very interesting and convincing thesis concerning the authorship of The Gospels and the better part of the NT that has nothing to do with the supernatural. Also he is open to criticism, debate and discussion of his thesis and can be reached on his forum at http://110559.aceboard.net/110559-971-0-Caesar-Messiah.htm .        


Post 7

Friday, December 7, 2007 - 4:06pmSanction this postReply
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Ted,

I don't think you or Hitchens have an accurate history of Chanukah. Jews hung out as a little group in some part of Syria, paying taxes to the Syrian government and minding their own business. Then Antiochus took power, ransacked the Jewish temple, dedicated it to Zeus, massacred the Jews, and banned Judaism. A small group of Jews fought back and won. They took back their temple and celebrated. What's wrong with that? Sure, you can call them zealots, but they were fighting for rights they deserved.

I know of no subsequent uprising inspired by the Maccabeean rebellion, nor do I know of subsequent (unjustified) assassinations, nor am I familiar with any Jewish malevolent dictatorship. Sources please.

Yeah, if the Maccabees had failed, we probably wouldn't have Judaism and Christianity as they exist today, if at all. But we might well have been stuck with Greek mythology. That's like at least 9 more gods! :)

A more benevolent take on this would be to compare those Jews not to the Taliban but to the rebels who started the USA.

Jordan




Post 8

Friday, December 7, 2007 - 4:51pmSanction this postReply
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No, comparing them to the Taliban is much more appropriate. I am long past the point of tolerating religion and mysticism.

You are right about one thing, in my view: at least we don't have to contend with multiple gods (thank God!).

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Post 9

Friday, December 7, 2007 - 7:23pmSanction this postReply
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A Dictatorship of One's Own

Comparing the Maccabean Revolt to the American Revolution is at best ignorant, if not downright dishonest and despicable. The American Revolution was not fought on religious grounds, nor by religious zealots, nor in order to set up a homegrown theocracy. The Maccabean revolution and the later revolts under the Romans may have been about autonomy, but this was the same sort of autonomy as the witch-burning Puritans of Salem sought. Not freedom, but a dictatorship of their own.

While Antiochus certainly provided a wonderful incentive for secularizing Jews to side with the zealots, characterizing the Jews as a small band hanging on in Syria is simply ridiculous. The Jews were are very large ethnic group which had been granted special privileges by Alexander the Great and who lived throughout the Levant from Alexandria and Palestine to Persia and Greece. The zealots were a relatively small radical fundamentalist group that advocated strict Mosaic law including the usual stoning for blasphemy and adultery. Such practices had been abandoned by Hellenizing Jews who committed such sins as sending their sons to gymnasiums where they wrestled in the nude and studied Homer rather than the Torah. Antiochus was a madman who declared himself a god. His desecration of the temple was not a symptom of anti-Semitism per se, but of megalomania. (Meanwhile, Jews in Ptolemaic Alexandria and elsewhere flourished.) The Maccabean party did not establish freedom, unless one counts a homegrown Judean theocracy as an improvement. Once in power, the Maccabees were as murderous as their predecessors.

From Wikipedia:

The Maccabees

The revolt itself involved many individual battles, in which the Maccabean forces gained infamy among the Syrian army for their use of guerrilla tactics. After the victory, the Maccabees entered Jerusalem in triumph and ritually cleansed the Temple, reestablishing traditional Jewish worship there and installing Jonathan Maccabee as high priest. A large Syrian army was sent to quash the revolt, but returned to Syria on the death of Antiochus IV. Its commander Lysias, preoccupied with internal Syrian affairs, agreed to a political compromise that provided religious freedom.

Following the re-dedication of the temple, the supporters of the Maccabees were divided over the question of whether to continue fighting. When the revolt began under the leadership of Mattathias, it was seen as a war for religious freedom to end the oppression of the Seleucids. However, as Maccabees realized how successful they had been many wanted to continue the revolt as a war of national self-determination. This conflict led to the exacerbation of the divide between the Pharisees and Sadducees under later Hasmonean monarchs such as Alexander Jannaeus. [1]

Those who sought the continuation of the war of national identity were led by Judah Maccabee. On his death in battle in 160 BC, Judah was succeeded as army commander by his younger brother, Jonathan, who was already High Priest. Jonathan made treaties with various foreign states, causing further dissent among those who desired religious freedom over political power. On Jonathan's death in 142 BC, Simon Maccabee, the last remaining son of Mattathias, took power. That same year, Demetrius II, king of Syria, granted the Jews complete political independence and Simon, great high priest and commander of the Jews, went on to found the Hasmonean dynasty. Jewish autonomy lasted until 63 BC, when the Roman general Pompey captured Jerusalem and subjected judea to Roman rule, while the Hasmonean dynasty itself ended in 37 BC when the Idumean Herod the Great became de facto king of Jerusalem.


Jewish zealotry persisted throughout the Hellenistic and Imperial eras.

From Wikipedia:

Sicarii

Sicarii (Latin plural of Sicarius 'dagger-' or later contract- killer) is a term applied, in the decades immediately preceding the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE, (probably) to an extremist splinter group[1] to the Jewish Zealots, (or insurgents) who attempted to expel the Romans and their partisans from Judea:

"When Albinus reached the city of Jerusalem, he bent every effort and made every provision to ensure peace in the land by exterminating most of the Sicarii." —Josephus, Jewish Antiquities (xx.208)

The Sicarii resorted to terror to obtain their objective. Under their cloaks they concealed sicae, or small daggers, from which they received their name. At popular assemblies, particularly during the pilgrimage to the Temple Mount, they stabbed their enemies (Romans or Roman sympathizers, Herodians, and wealthy Jews comfortable with Roman rule), lamenting ostentatiously after the deed to blend into the crowd to escape detection. Literally, Sicarii meant "dagger-men".

The victims of the Sicarii included Jonathan the High Priest, though it is possible that his murder was orchestrated by the Roman governor Felix. Some of their murders were met with severe retaliation by the Romans on the entire Jewish population of the country. On some occasions, they could be bribed to spare their intended victims. If the narrative of Barabbas is not an invention to create a parable, even convicted Sicarii were occasionally released on promising to spare their opponents, though there is no evidence for this practice outside the Gospels, which are largely in accord on this point. Once, Josephus relates, after kidnapping the secretary of Eleazar, governor of the Temple precincts, they agreed to release him in exchange for ten of their captured comrades.


Sounds just like celebrating July Fourth?

I am not an anti-theist nor particularly dismayed by modern, tolerant, non-fundamentalist forms of Judaism or Christianity. Indeed, Jewish by blood and Catholic in upbringing I have been accused of being sympathetic to those creeds on this list. I have made detailed and sympathetic studies of Jewish and Christian history, literature, and philosophy. But I am rather a partisan of the truth. The actual events which Chanukkah celebrates are not ones which any person who values human freedom and truth within historical context can celebrate. If one wishes to celebrate a fantasy with one's children, by all means, indulge them so far as one can do so without teaching mysticism, lies, or racial myths.

Ted Keer

Post 10

Friday, December 7, 2007 - 8:09pmSanction this postReply
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Greg, I find it unnecessary to posit any Roman hoax to explain the origins of Christianity. Jesus' teachings fall within a spectrum of Pharisaic thought. Many of his teachings parallel Hillel, who was a near contemporary. Early Talmudic commentary condemning those who believe that the Messiah has already come corroborate Josephus and Tacitus. Kai Kjaer-Hansen's Death of the Messiah documents the early expulsion of Jewish followers of Jesus from the synagogue in the first century. Jesus seems to have been a charismatic popular Galilean moralist who refused to allow himself to be co-opted by the Zealots in a military revolt. He may have believed himself possibly to be the Messiah, but not in the military sense. (There are at least three concepts of the Messaiah: the Priest Messiah, the Davidic Warrior Messiah, and the Suffering Messiah.) A. N. Wilson and Geza Vermes' works on Jesus & early Christianity are quite good. He seems to have been sincere and doubt-ridden. His actual words (so far as we can tell, as he did not write the down) seem to be a call for internal personal reform and a critique of those who substitute outward conformity with Judaic law for an internal spiritual life. Certain "statements against interest" such as Jesus' "Eli, Eli lama sabachthani?" seem to show that some parts of the gospels do report actual events rather than fabrications. If the passion narrative is a forgery, why would the forger have Jesus admit his own abandonment?

The religion we know as Christianity seems to be an amalgam of Judaism, Levantine harvest-god cult, and post-hoc Pauline apologia. Jesus' own words seem to have been gostic and anti-clerical in nature. The Gospel of Thomas is quite an eye-opener for those who think Jesus intended to found a hierarchical Church. There is no evidence that he saw himself outside Judaism or as the founder of a new system, Sherri Sheperd's comments aside.

Theories which attribute the Gospels to Roman authors or Shakespeare's plays to Francis Bacon seem to be a lot of ad hoc pleading in order to establish an utterly implausible and unnecessary non-explanation of a non-hoax.

Ted Keer

Post 11

Saturday, December 8, 2007 - 11:15pmSanction this postReply
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Hey Ted,

Thanks for the Sicarii bit. Crazy weird! The article uses biased language, but I get the point. Interesting stuff. I Didn't know about them. And given the Maccabee bit subsequent to the initial uprising, I take your point about the troubles which that uprising precipitated.

Nevertheless, Chanukah *doesn't* celebrate the Sicarii or latter Maccabee attacks. It just celebrates the successful rebellion against Greek oppression. Similarly, Americans don't celebrate, say, the slaughter and displacement of American Indians post July 4. Rather, Americans celebrate just the successful rebellion against the Brits. Thus, the comparison between Chanukah and July 4 remains apt.

See, it's not fair to package-deal into a holiday all the poop that followed the event it commemorates. Such a take on the holiday is rather malevolent and unnecessary. After all,
some Jews play pretty cool and important roles in history, who perhaps wouldn't have come around had the Maccabees failed. Why not focus on those positives as well?

But really, Ted, why not just take Chanukah as Rand takes Christmas?

Jordan



Post 12

Sunday, December 9, 2007 - 5:26pmSanction this postReply
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Jordan, to answer your question, reread the last paragraph of my last post. The Maccabees themselves, were religious terrorists. There is no analogy to be drawn between Jul 4th and Chanukkah. None of the parties of our revolution fought as religious zealots or participated in Custer's massacres.

For anyone with an interest in the actual history, I strongly suggest vols. II through IV of Will Durant's Story of Civilization: The Life of Greece, Caesar and Christ & The Age of Faith.

Post 13

Sunday, December 9, 2007 - 10:20pmSanction this postReply
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If you think America's rebels weren't by and large religious, and didn't fight in the name of religion, you're kiddin' yourself. Just check out the Declaration of Independence and its various references to a god. Also, consider that the colonies started by virtue of protestant dissidents, who're pretty staunch religionists if you ask me.

Moreover, Americans Patriots like Thomas Sumter, Andrew Pickens, and Francis Marion used guerrilla tactics to protect the south, similar to the (I presume) guerrilla tactics that the Maccabees used.

But go ahead with your malevolent selective historical interpretation. But to be sure, you didn't answer my last question, which was why not just take Chanukah light-heartedly and celebrate what good can be strained from it -- as Rand did with Christmas -- rather than poop all over it? Was Rand wrong to benignigate (it was a toss up between that word and "benignify") Christmas?


Jordan






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Post 14

Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 3:31pmSanction this postReply
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Ted, have you been a bad boy lately?

Post 15

Thursday, December 13, 2007 - 6:14pmSanction this postReply
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Eu, Weh!

First, if a person is of Jewish heritage, and wants to celebrate Chanukkah with his children, I do not oppose this, so long as the children are taught the full historical truth once they are old enough to understand it. Lighting candles and giving gifts are obviously not objectionable activities. But doing so in the name of "freedom from oppression" is not logically compatible with the undisputed historical fact that the Maccabees were fighting not to establish a pluralist secular state with freedom of religion (as were any Founding Father you can name) but in order to establish a fundamentalist theocracy. The Maccabeans regularly assassinated people like the high priest Jonathan whom they saw as too collaborationist or not zealous enough.

How can any of this be compared to the American Revolution?

Since 1688, religious questions in the colonies were pretty much moot. George III cannot be compared to Antiochus. No state religion, temple or religious laws were established and no party of which I am aware attempted to do so. Rather, the Founding Fathers invoked the Creator only as a personification of nature, never invoking Jesus or any sectarian figure, text, or creed.

I was brought up with the tooth fairy, the easter bunny, cookies for Santa, and so on. My parents never positively asserted that these creatures existed. If I subscribed to the notion of cultural relativism, I suppose I could talk about how Easter often occasioned attacks against Jews during European history. I don't subscribe to such notions. But I will say that at Easter Mass as a boy the congregation plays the role of the mob, with churchgoers themselves calling out "Crucify him! Crucify him!" in a horribly uncomfortable vicarious reenactment of the guilt of the mob. The Romans kill Jesus. No Jews (as Jews) are blamed, no mock jews are scapegoated.

I assume that the well-documented facts of American History and the Maccabean revolt speak for themselves, for those who are interested in the facts. I assume Objectivists are among those people.

Ted Keer

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Friday, December 14, 2007 - 10:05pmSanction this postReply
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Just to drive home my point that American rebels fought in the name of religion to fight of an oppressor -- just like the Maccabees did -- check out the Library of Congress's Exhibition, Religion and the Founding of the American Republic. To quote from the homepage:
"This exhibition demonstrates that many of the colonies that in 1776 became the United States of America were settled by men and women of deep religious convictions who in the seventeenth century crossed the Atlantic Ocean to practice their faith freely. That the religious intensity of the original settlers would diminish to some extent over time was perhaps to be expected, but new waves of eighteenth century immigrants brought their own religious fervor across the Atlantic and the nation's first major religious revival in the middle of the eighteenth century injected new vigor into American religion. The result was that a religious people rose in rebellion against Great Britain in 1776, and that most American statesmen, when they began to form new governments at the state and national levels, shared the convictions of most of their constituents that religion was, to quote Alexis de Tocqueville's observation, indispensable to the maintenance of republican institutions. The efforts of the Founders of the American nation to define the role of religious faith in public life and the degree to which it could be supported by public officials that was not inconsistent with the revolutionary imperatives of the equality and freedom of all citizens is the central question which this exhibition explores."  (underline added)

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/religion.html
 The comparisons we choose to draw are what they are, I suppose.

Jordan


Post 17

Saturday, December 15, 2007 - 12:52pmSanction this postReply
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See:

Jefferson on Religion and Government

Post 18

Saturday, December 15, 2007 - 4:26pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Jeff,

Not sure what you intended with your link. But I suppose I should disclose that I think the U.S. Constitution does indeed erect a wall between church and state, and that the church-state integrationists' interpretation of that document is mistaken.

But allow me to make two points. First, Jefferson is not really the best source for interpreting the bill of rights, specifically, the first amendment. James Madison is, along with the bill of rights' draft history, which might be interesting for Objectivists to see laid out. Second, the bill of rights wasn't ratified till 1791. The Revolutionary War ended around 1781. In the interim, our young little nation struggled with the relationship between church and state. And not all states (or their congressional spokesmen) were quick to jump on the bill of rights bandwagon. As a fun example that few people know about, consider that despite being subject to the bill, it was only in 1939 when Georgia, Massachusetts, and Connecticut chose to ratify it.

Jordan


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Saturday, December 15, 2007 - 5:16pmSanction this postReply
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I think you may have missed the point, which I acknowledge I didn't explain.

The assertion that (though there can obviously be exceptions), "American rebels fought in the name of religion to fight of[f] an oppressor..." is simply historically false.

The history of the adoption of the Bill of Rights (and more generally, the Constitution) doesn't begin at the conclusion of the Revolutionary War. It, as part of the whole struggle, was at the end of a process that went back at least 30 years prior. That whole struggle was not, fundamentally, one driven by religious motives, nor justified on the basis of religious principles.

To see that, reading Jefferson's writings on the subject is relevant, as are those of Adams, Madison, Paine, and many others. These men, as is clear from their writing, in attempting to establish the particular social structure they were striving for, were not motivated by religion or religious principles. I cited some of Jefferson's statements in order to provide evidence for that view.
(Edited by Jeff Perren on 12/15, 6:34pm)


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