About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadPage 0Page 1Page 2Page 3Forward one pageLast Page


Post 0

Thursday, August 14, 2008 - 5:58amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I appreciated this posting today -- very refreshing.

Thanks, Ted.

EDIT: To clarify, I found a conservative voice expressed unapologetically from a respected Hollywood celebrity refreshing given the vast amount of leftist propaganda that normally gets spouted -- and believed -- from that dubiously influential part of the American media.

Ethan does make valid points in the next post.

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 8/14, 8:11am)


Sanction: 18, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 18, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 18, No Sanction: 0
Post 1

Thursday, August 14, 2008 - 6:45amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
The lesser of two evils is still evil. Through the classic sales technique of FUD (Fear, Uncertainlty, and Doubt) the Democrats and Republicans take turns at holding power and fleecing as much cash as they can from the citizens of this country. All the debates about choosing between the two amount to merely choosing between being posisoned to death or being slowly tortured to death. Do not be fooled into thinking it is anything other than this. Those who argue for supporting one or the other party "just for now" because of cause X, Y, or Z are merely falling into the trap. Rand had it right in the discussion between Galt and Mr. Thompson. These politicians will do whatever it takes to buy another stay of execution. they will sacrafice anyone to stay in power even for another day. Do not doubt it.

Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 2

Thursday, August 14, 2008 - 4:44pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I have sympathy for Ethan's comments but I don't entirely agree. The phrase "the lesser of two evils" is probably more of a recognition that life's choices are often not as simplistic as a choice of evil through and through as opposed to the Platonic ideal of moral perfection. The "lesser of two evils" is probably more appropriately labeled "the best of available good".

The course of human history has been an endless series of compromises between the best of available good in a steady progression towards a better life. A compromise that results in a better outcome than what has been previously had is far better than picking a fight for perfection and succumbing to a worsening of your life's position. To give up salient steps of progress towards freedom in the name of demanding a perfect adherence to your ideals while ignoring the real world consequences of failing to achieve it only succeeds in accomplishing nothing, except feeling good you stuck to your guns and a self-righteous feeling you've only now earned the right to complain for the rest of your life how everyone else around you just doesn't get it.

For example, I do not refuse to drive to work because the roads that I must use to drive on were paid for through compulsory taxation. Am I compromising my principles by picking the lesser of two evils? Or am I living my life the best possible way I can in a world of choices that are available to me? Of course we ought to work towards that ideal we have of a free enlightened society based on Objectivist thought, but to sabotage any salient steps towards that goal is nothing but an absolute failure in trying to achieve that goal.

Truly, the phrase "a compromise of your principles" really means giving up a greater value for a lesser one. And that is what should be unacceptable.

Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Post 3

Thursday, August 14, 2008 - 4:54pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
The one thing I'd say is that I don't feel either the Democrats or the Republicans in any way represent a "best available good."

More later on that!

E.


Post 4

Thursday, August 14, 2008 - 5:12pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Fair enough Ethan. Although for a particular political race I rather compare the candidates themselves more so than their party affiliation because so many candidates have a variety of different goals that differ from each other that don't fit under one neat umbrella of a party platform. We don't all place the same importance of a candidate's particular attributes. For example in the current Presidential race, some may regard the position to have more influence on foreign policy than on economics, and thus think McCain is the more qualified candidate while others feel the right to abortion is their most important concern and would rather choose the candidate that will not ban it. Considering that, we can more often come together on the ideals we agree on but differ on the strategies we should implement to achieve those ideals. But no candidate will perfectly represent your values unless you yourself are running, and a choice for someone else is merely a compromise to the "lesser of available evils.

Sanction: 13, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 13, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 13, No Sanction: 0
Post 5

Thursday, August 14, 2008 - 5:49pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
The candidates are not far enough different from their parties. Essentially it's a "say whatever I can that will make me win" policy.

In a candidate I'm not looking for perfection, I'm just not willing to accept a villain in place of someone I slightly disagree with. The basic point  that neither of these candidates supports is individual rights.

As a whole, the population of the U.S. has become entirely to comfortable with our rights being violated. I'm not going to let them fool me and I'm not going to be comfortable with it. Do I pay my outrageous taxes? Yes. Do I obey the laws? Yes. I do so as I don't want to go to jail. Will I vote for the people who support these laws and taxes. Hell no!

They like to pretend we have a choice as they know it's really no choice while these two parties take turn holding power. It will not change. Ever, until we stop voting for them.


Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 6

Thursday, August 14, 2008 - 6:44pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
So Ethan you see no meaningful difference at all between McCain and Obama? And is 'not voting' going to stop taxation?

Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 7

Thursday, August 14, 2008 - 7:03pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

One Carter is Too Much

The question is simple. Does the satisfaction of saying "I didn't vote for McCain" merit the burden of Obama and a filibusterproof Democratic Congress? To say that there is no difference is to say that a promise to raise taxes is no different from a promise to cut taxes, having already withdrawn from Iraq before the surge is no different from withdrawing after, that standing up for our own self defense is no different from being seen negotiating the unnegotiable. McCain is just about the worst possible candidate I could vote for. He's a politician. But he's able to switch to the proper position when the wind begins to blow.

Obama is too "principled" even to waffle. Of course, by principled, I mean altruistic on our behalf. McCain will waffle for the good of the country. McCain knows that too much altruism kills. (Lord knows I would rather not have to depend on the pragmatic principles of an opportunistic waffler.) I could even see Hillary Clinton doing the right thing, if only to get re-elected. But Obama's purity is frightening. Imagine where he would be now if he had stood up in congress before the recess and said, "you know, I don't like it, but we have to start drilling." Talk about a Sista Souljah moment!

The Democrats would have gladly betrayed the greens to gain power. He would be getting better numbers than Clinton did versus Dole. But he is too principled to do the right thing. He is Carter with all the smarm, and none of Jimmy's sex repel. Carter with the holier than thou altruist elitism, with an undertaker's good looks, and he means it.

If you live in Maine or California or New York, and you want to vote your fantasy vote, it can't hurt any more than staying home. But Hillary had it right when she asked who would you rather have answering the red phone at three in the morning. One Carter in one lifetime is too much.

Sanction: 9, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 9, No Sanction: 0
Post 8

Thursday, August 14, 2008 - 7:19pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
John,

Meaningful difference? Not in the end result.

However, the fact that I'm not going to vote for Obama or McCain doesn't mean I'm not going to vote. That is a common mistake many American's make, that we have only two choices. I'll vote for a third party, or individual.

I honestly doubt that the U.S. will change through reasoned voting. I love this country for what it stood for and what it could still be, but our politicians are corrupt and wrong on so many basic points that they don't deserve my vote. I forsee an eventual collapse, but it's going to take a long time. What will rise from the ashes? Who can say.


Post 9

Thursday, August 14, 2008 - 7:27pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ted,

Fear, uncertainty, doubt. McCain or Obama would both be happy for a vote based on fear. They'd be happy with any vote that gave them what they wanted.

This fake ad is about obama. Both sides fight like ths though. They are, essentially, in all the ways that really matter, the same. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1h4xfEfKqc


Post 10

Thursday, August 14, 2008 - 7:33pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ethan I'm confused by your statements. You don't think there is any difference in the end result, but you will vote for a third party candidate, which will then make a difference in the end?

You don't think the country will change through reasoned voting, but you will go out of your way to arrive at the polling booth, and vote. So what are you proposing then other than token gestures, if this country won't change through reasoned voting?

If you've decided to vote, you've decided there is value in voting. So if you have given value to voting, then the end result should be of importance, shouldn't it?
(Edited by John Armaos on 8/14, 7:38pm)


Post 11

Thursday, August 14, 2008 - 7:38pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

"Fear uncertainty doubt" is not a sentence. I find it as rhetorically honest as saying "Bush lied." Rational fear, like of a huuricane, or a rattlesnake? Or the irrational fear of being called names? If you are saying that my fear is based on irrational doubt and uncertainty, then say it. My position is thought out.

My fear about Obama is based upon his stated positions and his voting record, about which I have no doubt or uncertainty. My doubt and uncertainty about McCain also leads to fear, but less fear, I fear, than my undoubting fear of the Obamessiah.

I would much have preferred Hillary to have won the Democratic nomination. Any emotions that Obama evokes in me are based on my reasoned position, based on the evidence. I am not some Spock to be embarrased of my emotions.

And the chief emotion I identify myself experiencing is revulsion.

Post 12

Thursday, August 14, 2008 - 7:47pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
John,

When explaining to people the futiity of voting for a Democrat or Republican the first thing people ask you is: "did you vote." Saying no ends the disussion. Voting for a third party is a vote and it also serves as a protest of sorts. It's merely a device for creating discussions that may cause another to change their mind.


Post 13

Thursday, August 14, 2008 - 7:53pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I don't doubt your reasoned feeling, just your conclusion.

You fear Obama and you fear McCain less you say. So you will vote for the one to prevent the other from being in power? Slow torture versus poison? I'll have something from a different menu please. They don't care! Each of them wants you to fear the other more. End result: they win. In my way, they still win, but my hands are clean of it and I keep arguing.

In this day and age people look for the uickest way to cut you off. Ideas don't matter to most, they just want to find something on you they can spin in a way to discredit you. HAH they'll say....you voted for X so you really are just ....... discussion over.


Sanction: 14, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 14, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 14, No Sanction: 0
Post 14

Thursday, August 14, 2008 - 8:39pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ethan,

I agree with you completely.

If we don't vote for the best candidate according to our principles, then we are being traitors to those principles.

It is a long war and one that isn't given any guarantee. But those who will vote for the lesser of two evils can guarantee that their approach will never yield anything but evil and in doing so, the political situation will likely grow worse and worse all things remaining equal, and that means that the lesser evils of today will tend to be worse than those of the past and more importantly, will be still worse in the future. Every vote not given to the Libertarian party makes the road longer - those who make reasons for voting against the party that most closely resembles their beliefs weaken the party.

Perfection in a candidate isn't required. If either of the major parties fielded a half-way decent candidate, it would be a different story. I sanctioned the post above where you mentioned FUD - it is the heart of the con game these corrupt political structures are playing.

The two major parties and their candidates and the way they run campaigns have deadened Americans to the constant barrage of lies - it is accepted. The same with the complete divorce of stated principles from actual intentions - no, what is stated is just a reflection of what the recent polling suggested would be most pragmatic lie. When people support the Libertarian party they are fighting against the corruption of the current political system, not just this or that candidate in this or that race.

Anytime a third party puts up even a semblance of a good candidate, voting for the lesser of the two evils is a form of sanctioning that evil. And the cries that a strong showing by a Libertarian candidate would be bad because it could tip the race into the hands of the greater evil - that is pure pragmatics and what has taken us to where we are. The fact is that anything that begins to wake the country up to voting Libertarian is a step in the right direction.

People who don't vote for a candidate who represent their principles aren't even in the fight (unless the candidate himself is a complete ass - and sometimes they are). And to vote for the lesser of two evils when a decent Libertarian is on the ballot is getting into the fight on the wrong side.

Post 15

Thursday, August 14, 2008 - 8:48pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Thanks Steve, and sanction!

 

(Edited by Ethan Dawe on 8/14, 8:51pm)


Sanction: 1, No Sanction: 0
Post 16

Thursday, August 14, 2008 - 8:51pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_76PSn8iFVs


Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Post 17

Thursday, August 14, 2008 - 9:55pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

Where're the concretes?

Well, if I agreed that the difference were between slow torture and poison, then I wouldn't vote. But I think Obama is an unregenerate altruist menace, while McCain is merely a two-faced scumbag politician who does the right thing when he has to. I note that you and Steve don't address any of the specifics such as their positions on taxes or drilling for oil, so I'll assume that your more interested in your own imagined insight into their character than their stated positions. Based on their stated positions, there is more than enough evidence to call McCain an unbalanced diet, and to call Obama a stomach full of wood chips, empty platitudes and ground glass.

When McCain went to Berlin, he didn't stand up and say that America has to learn to live according to the standards of the GrĂ¼ne Partei.

To ground this discussion in some sorely needed concretes, What, other than McCain Feingold, scares you two so much about the Senator from Arizona? No floating epithets - I want specific issues.

Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Post 18

Thursday, August 14, 2008 - 11:57pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Some of us choose to hold their nose and vote for the major party candidate that they believe will do the least harm. Some choose to vote for an ideological third party candidate that has no real chance of winning. Some choose not to vote as a matter of principal. Everyone here is thoughtful and intelligent and each of us has arrived at our decision based upon careful reasoning which reflects core aspects of our respective personalities. I'm convinced that each of us believe that the choice we make is the most "effective" in achieving our goals - as we each uniquely define them.

Instead of casting aspersions at one another for not having made the same decision as ourselves, I suggest that a more productive discussion would focus on devising a realistic strategy that would unite all of us to work towards a common goal. What ideas do you have that we might all agree upon and get behind were it available.

For example, I choose not to vote for detailed reasons I have articulated in the past. However, I would be happy to have voted for "None of the Above" in any past election. I believe that it would be enlightening to see just how large the group of dissatisfied citizens is - and to see how that group would inevitably grow over time! It is my belief that allowing the disgruntled to have their "vote" tallied in this manner would generate tremendous fear in the entrenched political camps and would spark a new type of political dialog focused on what was wrong with politics as usual. Ultimately, this dialog could act as a catalyst for the creation of viable third parties that could replace the Republicans and Democrats and hopefully produce a candidate that I could genuinely support as acting in behalf of my best interests. If this option were available, would you avail yourselves of it?

What other ideas do you have that you think might unite us all in common cause?

Regards;
--
Jeff

(Edited by C. Jeffery Small on 8/15, 12:12am)


Post 19

Friday, August 15, 2008 - 12:06amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Regarding McCain, I seem to remember that long ago in a time far away (like February), there seemed to be a general consensus that the crop of Republican candidates was just about the worst in anyone's memory, and withing that abysmal group, McCain was considered to be the inferior of that bunch. Am I misremembering? How then, has he risen to be so acceptable now? Like Ethan and Steve, I am puzzled by this.

Regards,
--
Jeff


(Edited by C. Jeffery Small on 8/15, 12:07am)


Post to this threadPage 0Page 1Page 2Page 3Forward one pageLast Page


User ID Password or create a free account.