RoR: Forum

You just don't like him because he's black and you're insecure.

JHM

Post 1

Sunday, June 21, 2009 - 10:30am

Jake: I'm so sorry but neither I nor people related with me clearly understand what you meant with "You just don't like him because he's black and you're insecure". You're profile states that you consider yourself to be an Objectivist. If this is so, you're message should be read as some kind of a fun, though of what category (sarcasm, pun, ironic) is left undisclosed (and neither I nor my friends see a sense in it, though they are Americans themselves, while I, being of German origin, could be missing the point). If your post is meant in a serious vein it doesn't correspond at all to the Objectivist way of looking at what is happening in the United States now. Hence, will you please clarify and do so with a few more words? If you wrote your post with a sense of humor, let's all share this sense.

Post 2

Sunday, June 21, 2009 - 11:40am

Manfred, my boyfriend is black, and Jake is picking on me. And everyone knows that Obama is an Arab.

Post 3

Sunday, June 21, 2009 - 12:58pm

Jake was kidding, Manfred, and so is Ted.

(Edited by Teresa Summerlee Isanhart on 6/21, 1:00pm)

Post 4

Sunday, June 21, 2009 - 2:11pm

It is well noted that non-native English speakers have a hard time recognizing Anglo-American dry humor, and especially ironic sarcasm. For anecdotal remarks, I googled "foreigners don't understand sarcasm" and got hits like the following:

http://esl-bits.net/advanced-listening/Media/sarcasm/default.html

KATHERINE RANKIN: "Well, I think that it's tough because I think in American English there is something that's called a dry sense of humor. And I think folks that have a dry sense of humor, or even we could call it a dry sense of sarcastic communication, will be being sarcastic based entirely on context. They'll be making statements that are contrary to what they really believe or what is really true.

"It's a little easier when folks give you the paralinguistic cues. And I think it would be very, very good for anybody's who's not an English speaker to listen to those cues and notice if somebody slows down in the way they speak, if their voice suddenly goes up and down in a wide range, if there are long pauses in what they say. Think more carefully and attend more carefully to what the person is
saying, and even ask 'Are you being sarcastic? Do you mean that?' and they'll usually clarify."

AA: "They'll say 'No, I'm not' in which case they mean 'Yes, I am' [laughter]"

and http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1319532/children_dont_understand_sarcasm.html?cat=25

I've also found that non-native English speakers have great difficulty with sarcasm. We have a few friends from other countries and I'm always finding myself saying, "I was being sarcastic." It's gotten to the point now where I don't bother to try sarcasm on them anymore. :)

I have noticed this from personal experience as well. In the late 1980's I spent a Summer with a very intelligent and well-educated exchange student from Paris, France. He was constantly confused by sarcasm, and took sarcastic comments as intentional insults so often that we had to calm him down one night and advise him that he was best off assuming that just about anything we told him that sounded the least bit strange was an untruth, meant as a joke.

Then in the early 1990's I worked and lived for some time with Mexican immigrants. After quite a few misunderstandings caused by my very dry humor, I came to realize that my friend from Paris was not alone in his inability to understand sarcasm. I communicated with my Mexican friends almost solely in fluent Spanish, and was taken by several Mexicans I met to be a native Mexican myself due to my accent, so their not understanding my sarcasm was not due to their level of English fluency.

Not only do foreigners and those with brain damage, dementia and autism find irony incomprehensible, we even have plenty of misunderstandings here on RoR between perfectly intelligent native English speakers such as here where Steve Wolfer, with whom I have corresponded privately and cooperated on matters outside of RoR is not sure of my intentional humor.

So, if an English speaker makes a remark that seems entirely serious, yet which does not make sense within the context, my first suggestion would be to assume that the person is using dry (i.e., serious appearing, but not actually serious) humor.

(Edited by Ted Keer on 6/21, 2:53pm)

Post 5

Sunday, June 21, 2009 - 4:10pm

I tend to be more visual than aural in reading subtle communication clues. When I was a therapist, I picked up a lot by watching. Branden, on the other hand, would often look away or close his eyes when he was most intensely focused. He said that he often did his best work over the phone - he tracked differences in tones, pitch, frequency. volume to a remarkable degree. Our written communication at RoR denies us both visual and verbal clues.
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Manfred, if it is any consolation, I could only guess as to Jake's intention. I hoped that it was humor, but I didn't know. I too would have asked what he meant (and English is my native language).
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Ted sometimes leaves me puzzled, I recognize that he intends humor (or a lash of stinging sarcasm), but I can't always pluck the subject from his post - and that is frustrating. Who is he targeting? (see post #46 - it is the one that Ted alluded to above)

And note that in post #4 above, Ted mentions me in the same sentence with the brain damaged, the demented, the autistic, and those for whom English is a second language - he did separate me from all others with a comma, but I'd rather have had a period :-) (I put those little smiley things so that people don't have to guess what the visual clues would be when I'm in humor mode)

Post 6

Sunday, June 21, 2009 - 4:33pm

That was a test, my mentioning the brain damaged, the demented and the autistic. I was laughing incontrollably as I typed it. The problem is that you can use smiley faces or irony marks to set off your comments, but explaining or pointing out the joke defeats the purpose.

Post 7

Monday, June 22, 2009 - 2:05am

Steve: Thanks for your message, which, just as Ted's did - though yours did it in a more direct and serious way - cleared the whole issue. Germans - my origin being German - and Spanish speaking people (I was born in a Spanish speaking country, lived there for 47 years and, thus, speak Spanish fluently) also know and use sarcasm and irony, but make a point on where it is meant as such. In Germany, for example, there is a cabaret artist, Nuhr, who even holds a Mensa title for his high intelligence, that uses sarcasm to smash politics and religions to smithereens. I mention this just so that now it doesn't seem that sarcasm is in any way exclusive to Americans and foreigners can't understand it. You were very right, Steve, that you too would have asked Jake what he meant (though your mother language is English) and this also happened to my American friend (who knows American sarcasm extremely well, but was as much confused as I about how Jake really meant what he wrote). This is due to the fact that sarcasm is very valid as long as it is used, as so many other things, up to certain point. Once it it overdone it stops being sarcasm and only leads to confusion. Your use of Smileys is, thus, extremely worthwhile, for it clears immediately what you want to convey through writing and can't use - for any reason whatsoever - your voice (the human voice rendering immediately what one says as serious, as a joke, as sarcasm, etc.). I am also a great friend of Smileys, for they help to transmit to my correspondent my state of feeling. These Smileys should be used far more often in forums in general and it would be a good idea if Rebirth of Reason were to include them in their "post creations", etc, through Smiley drawings, as Skype does. I will now send the link to the Open Letter News Discussion to my American friend, so that she knows that I followed her feeling of being mystified as much as I was by Jake's comment. So, Ted and the rest of this "bunch" of crazy Objectivists who seem to want to change the world and hopefully will, should you read this post, please remember that the Internet, while having been fortunately invented in the United States, also fortunately does not exist only in the United States but encompasses now, again fortunately, the whole world, being, for people like we Objectivists, the only source through which we can voice our standpoint, since the general media completely dismisses our voices, as is well known but, also, very UNfortunate for being so. In accordance, use sarcasm up to but not beyond where it will only create confusion in very serious matters - for Americans also, as my friend stands as an example for this - and stop it there and then. Don't overdo it, for we Objectivists all know how intelligent we all are and, thus, don't need to turn "Rebirth of Reason's" highly recommendable forums into what could eventually become a cheap farcical cabaret show.
(Edited by Manfred F. Schieder on 6/22, 2:09am)

Post 8

Monday, June 22, 2009 - 2:19am

Teresa: Your clarifications are always welcome. Thank you for it.

Post 9

Monday, June 22, 2009 - 2:26am

Ted: One short afterthought: If Jake meant what he said as a joke on you, he shouldn't have used this forum for his comment - which is read by many people, most of whom don't even know that you have a black boyfriend, which makes understanding the comment even more difficult - but have sent you a personal mail, completely separated from the forum. Else, he should have specifically addressed the comment to you, by specifically mentioning your name at the start of his comment (as I do when I write in a forum, to avoid any misunderstanding).

Post 10

Monday, June 22, 2009 - 9:13am

Ted: I received now a comment from my American friend, who just read the posts of this forum. She allowed me to post the essence of what she wrote:

"I have read all the stuff on Jake. I am an American. Dry humor is nothing of the sort like sarcasm. (My enhancement) It is subtle and sophisticated in its humor, which is why some people don't "get it." But it is never negative or hurtful or aggressive. There is no place for sarcasm in anyone's language style unless they mean to be "mean." (My enhancement). It is a way of being cutting and mean indirectly and used by ******* (I avoid stating the word she used, though it would correctly apply), who are unwilling to say what they mean straight-out. It has no humor at all. Look it up in the dictionary."

May I add a comment of my own: The RoR forums are serious matter, because they deal with serious subjects. Hence, if correspondents have a personal joke going on among them, they should exchange such "jokes" in mails sent separately, as said on an earlier post, and not incorporate them into a forum, less of all into an RoR forum, for these forums are serious undertakings.

(Edited by Manfred F. Schieder on 6/22, 9:15am)

(Edited by Manfred F. Schieder on 6/22, 9:17am)

Post 11

Monday, June 22, 2009 - 9:27am

The proper definition of sarcasm is vicious,cruel humor. But many people use the term sarcasm to mean irony, which is not necessarily cruel. There is no cruel sarcasm here, just benevolent irony.

Sarcasmo

El sarcasmo (del lat�n sarcasmus) palabra la cual, procede del Griego sarkasmo, de sarkazein (morder los labios, de sarx/sark-, carne, la composici�n literalmente significar�a "cortar un pedazo de carne [de la persona elegida]").
El sarcasmo es proverbialmente descrito como "la forma m�s baja de humor pero la m�s alta expresi�n de ingenio" (una frase que se atribuye err�neamente a Oscar Wilde, pero realmente se desconoce su procedencia). Es una burla malintencionada y descaradamente disfrazada, iron�a mordaz y cruel con que se ofende o maltrata a alguien o algo. El t�rmino tambi�n se refiere a la figura ret�rica que consiste en emplear esta especie de iron�a. El sarcasmo es una cr�tica indirecta pero la mayor�a de las veces, evidente.
Ejemplos de sarcasmo o ruptura del sistema:
A veces, la iron�a se hace evidente por un problema de relevancia, como en el siguiente ejemplo:
"El finado era virtuoso, amable, y gordo".
Otra de sus formas consiste en expresar ideas y pensamientos fuera de la l�gica racional, como en la alocuci�n:
"Yo divido a los cr�ticos en dos clases: los malos y los que me elogian".
Otros ejemplos de sarcasmo e iron�a:
Juan llega al trabajo, y lo primero que hace es sentarse y poner los pies encima del escritorio para echarse fresco. El jefe lo ve y le dice: �Juan, sigue trabajando as� de duro!

El sarcasmo en la comunicaci�n oral [editar]

Como las entonaciones voc�licas usadas para denotar sarcasmo son tan sutiles, el uso del sarcasmo para expresar ideas que no son obviamente ir�nicas puede llevar a la confusi�n, especialmente donde hay diferencias de acento o no se tiene experiencia en el uso del lenguaje. El uso del sarcasmo difiere entre pa�ses. Muchas veces el sarcasmo es extra�amente mal interpretado, por parte de los que reciben el "insulto". Por otra parte, el sarcasmo en su expresi�n oral, tambi�n puede concebirse como una forma de expresi�n semi secreta, de forma en que puede decirse por ejemplo, "aquel respetable var�n" refiri�ndose a una piltrafa truculenta que emana tufancina. Notable tambi�n es el uso que puede darse al contrario del sarcasmo, haciendo referencias con la realidad, en un tono m�s cortante y ofensivo, puede interpretarse a este de muchas formas, m�s a�n, si �ste se lleva a cabo en un c�rculo social en el cual se toma mucho en cuenta los mensajes subliminales que puede dejar una oraci�n sarc�stica.

El sarcasmo en la comunicaci�n escrita [editar]

Al estar orientado al lenguaje hablado, puede ser dif�cil de plasmar en la forma escrita y es f�cilmente malentendido. Para evitar este problema se usan comentarios sarc�sticos en Internet junto a emotcursiva (por ejemplo: "Qu� 'amistoso' est�s hoy"). El sarcasmo tambi�n puede ser delimitado en la lengua escrita por el uso de may�sculas, especialmente para denotar un [�nfasis] que habr�a sido puesto en una conversaci�n hablada (por ejemplo: "Bueno, no fue PRECISAMENTE fant�stico").
En el Reino Unido y otros pa�ses, la escritura ha adoptado el uso de (!) (Marca exclamativa entre par�ntesis) siguiendo al discurso en el cual el sarcasmo o la iron�a son perceptibles por el tono de voz.
Sin embargo, esto no es universal. Por ejemplo, Shakespeare usaba regularmente al sarcasmo como una herramienta literaria para enfatizar el punto de un chiste, pero raramente us� alguna marca distintiva. El uso del "(!)" es un fen�meno ingl�s reciente. Como dijo el cientifico Jefrey Toloza: "El sarcasmo no es una forma m�s de hablar nuestro idioma; simplemente es una obra de arte".

Post 12

Monday, June 22, 2009 - 9:46am

Ted: That's a very peculiar way of defining "sarcasm", a way of someone trying to avoid the sling of what the word really means. May I suggest you to translate the Spanish text so that other readers - and, specifically, my American friend - can understand it too? I, at least, belong to the kind of men that like to be extremely courteous with ladies. If you read my article "Degrading Art" you will see that I consider them to be a real marvel of evolution itself.

By the way, why did you think it was necessary to write your reply in Spanish? Surely not to prove that you know the language. I wouldn't write anything on the RoR forum in German (specially without translating it into English), for it would mean disrespect to those who don't speak the language. I would say that it's not a very fine (some would say "educated", but I refrain from it) way of replying since it prohibits all the other not Spanish speaking readers from understanding what you wrote.

So, please translate your post into English. No sarcasm meant here.

Post 13

Monday, June 22, 2009 - 9:57am

I posted the Spanish article to show that the word sarcasm is even there used to mean irony. This is the relevant paragraph, translated by google:

El sarcasmo en la comunicaci�n oral [editar]

Como las entonaciones voc�licas usadas para denotar sarcasmo son tan sutiles, el uso del sarcasmo para expresar ideas que no son obviamente ir�nicas puede llevar a la confusi�n, especialmente donde hay diferencias de acento o no se tiene experiencia en el uso del lenguaje. El uso del sarcasmo difiere entre pa�ses. Muchas veces el sarcasmo es extra�amente mal interpretado, por parte de los que reciben el "insulto". Por otra parte, el sarcasmo en su expresi�n oral, tambi�n puede concebirse como una forma de expresi�n semi secreta, de forma en que puede decirse por ejemplo, "aquel respetable var�n" refiri�ndose a una piltrafa truculenta que emana tufancina. Notable tambi�n es el uso que puede darse al contrario del sarcasmo, haciendo referencias con la realidad, en un tono m�s cortante y ofensivo, puede interpretarse a este de muchas formas, m�s a�n, si �ste se lleva a cabo en un c�rculo social en el cual se toma mucho en cuenta los mensajes subliminales que puede dejar una oraci�n sarc�stica.

The sarcasm in oral communication

As the vowel [vocal] intonations used to denote sarcasm are so subtle, using sarcasm to express ideas that are not obviously ironic can lead to confusion, especially where there are differences in accent or do not have experience in using the language. The use of sarcasm differs between countries. Sometimes sarcasm is strangely misunderstood by those who receive the "insult." Moreover, the sarcasm in his speech, can also be conceived as a form of expression semi secret, so you can say for example, "that respectable man" referring to a piltrafa truculent emanating tufancina. Also notable is the use that may be contrary to the sarcasm, making references to reality in a more cutting and offensive, this can be interpreted in many ways even more so if it takes place in a social circle in the which takes into account much that subliminal messages can leave a sarcastic sentence.

Post 14

Monday, June 22, 2009 - 10:26am

The authors at Wikipedia don't agree with Ted or Manfred's friend about what dry humor means. They say it's about delivery, not content.

Post 15

Monday, June 22, 2009 - 10:35am

LOL!

Monday, June 22, 2009 - 12:51pm

LoL. This is the most amused I've ever been returning to RoR after a couple days away. I assumed my sarcasm would be abundantly plain and that no confusion could possibly find its way into anyone's mind as a direct result of said sarcasm. I was apparently wrong. Wow.

So, in America, we have a longstanding racial tension between whites and blacks. Might have something to do with that whole slavery thing, but who can be so sure? It might just be all those "Hood Movies" of the early 1990s. At any rate, even today many on both sides retain, to differing degrees, this racial hostility. Stemming from this continuing tension, some have accused anyone voicing disapproval for the Messiah Obama of having racist motivation for said disapproval, with no consideration of the very real and glaring reasons one might have for opposing the prospect of treading down a slippery pathway to socialism.

So the joke is born. Ted posts here, so although I don't know Ted, I can assume with considerable confidence that Ted is intelligent, and also that he has leanings (at the very least) toward objectivism, and as such, I've thrown caution to the wind and leapt to the conclusion that Ted is not a racist, and that his opposition to Obama is likely founded on principle and therefore reasonable. In the spirit of dry sarcastic irony, as has become the hot discussion here in my absence, I made my statement.

Until today, I never knew a single person other than my mother (who has absolutely no ability to keep up with the times, pop culture, or sarcasm) who wouldn't have gotten my joke. It wasn't even a valiant attempt at a joke that would warrant such attention! It was a passing comment that was so sure to be understood that I never really even thought about it. It was out of my mind until I came back today to find people on the edge of their seats, dying to know if I was really calling Ted a racist, people asserting that I was making a personal comment pertaining only to Ted, and people up in arms because of my gross misuse of this forum in making said comments that only Ted would understand!

I could shit a brick right now I'm in such disbelief at all this. And no, before you all freak out, I do not actually intend to move my bowels in such a way as to produce a brick. I don't even know if I can do that. I'm thinking it's impossible. I shouldn't have said it, because I don't want you all calling in the Inquisition to check me out to make sure I don't have some extraterrestrial abilities in the bathroom. I don't even plan to produce a brick-like object. I don't even have to go right now, actually, but, in some circles, we use words for other things besides the daily "me want foods. me like touchy. i go sleepy".

We sometimes use them for fun, like I am now. I'm having fun. Words are fun. Or, I should say they can be, if not horrendously overanalyzed or taken too seriously.

Ted, you have a black boyfriend? I didn't know. Do you really, or are you being sarcastic too? See, this is where the confusion lies... it should always reply in the response, which could go either way, thus enhancing the humor in the entire situation. I have a dog who is half white and half black, so I'm loved and hated by both sides. It's difficult, this tightrope we walk...

- JHM

P.S. I understand that it's bad to post such a terribly sarcastic response to a thread where apparently sarcasm isn't a common denominator. But since we're obviously in a different dimension (maybe the Twilight Zone?), I figure nothing's off limits.

Post 17

Monday, June 22, 2009 - 1:16pm

I read the article on Wikipedia and I don't think that "deadpan" is all there is to dry versus non-dry humor. I see dead-pan as only a definition of the delivery style and sometimes that delivery is what makes it funny, but sometimes it is just an enhancement to something that would be funny without that delivery.

The Wikipedia article's description of the Monty Python skit where the gun is used is clearly dead-pan, but the content isn't at all dry - not as I understand dry.

I copied the stuff below from a page on dry humor - not exactly sidesplitting, at least not to me, but it is dry humor:
--------------

"What is dry? People from away [away from the North East] might tell you that dry is a native's ability to articulate his sentiments in such a succinct and oblique manner that he becomes incomprehensible. But dry is really no more than a clever circumlocution or a punch line that doesn't need to be said.

Although it can be difficult to locate the origin of dry stories, the next two first appeared in my newspaper column. I will deny in court that they were topical commentaries on two of my neighbors."

To me, his asserting that he would deny in court that these were about his neighbor is dry humor - it could be done deadpan, it could be done with a sneaky look like someone was getting away with something (think Jack Benny), it could be done with a cat-ate-the-canary grin, it could be done with a wink to include the audience... and it works just as text.

Here are some of the stories:

"Gramp Wiley said, 'In 1905, Uncle Ern ran for dog catcher. Went around knocking on doors just like you'd do today, asking for votes. Everything went fine until the third day when a big black dog came right through a screen door and muckled him by the leg. Uncle Ern fought off the dog and three days later he was sitting in his rocking chair with his feet in the oven when his buddy lawyer Sline dropped in. When Sline heard what had happened he told Ern that he could sue the dog's owner for $5 for the torn pants. And when he learned that Ern couldn't even walk he told Ern that he'd also sue the dog's owner for $1,000 for loss of consortium. I said, 'Did Uncle Ern collect $1,000 for this loss of consortium thing?' Gramp said, 'No, he didn't. When Uncle Ern's wife learned what loss of consortium was, she jumped up in court and demanded payments for the previous ten years.'"

Here's one that's even drier:

"In the 1950s, Bernard's father, Giant Davis, bought lobsters on a dock in Port Clyde. One day a fellow came alongside at low water and hollered up, 'Hey Giant. You wanna buy some lobsters?'
'No.'
'Why not?'
'I wouldn't know who to pay.'*

*[i.e., I know not from whom you stole them.]"

"Giant's is the best dry story I ever understood, but it is certainly not the driest story I ever heard. You and I cannot appreciate the driest story we ever heard because we didn't understand it. Maine is full of people whose ability with the oblique dry phrase will never be applauded because the rest of us will never figure out what their words really meant. And here my friend, the venerable judge Sam Collins in Rockland, comes to mind. Sam once said something that I had to think about for six months before I laughed. That is dry."
------------------

For him, dryness has to do with how oblique is the connection between the two different planes or dimensions that are joined in the event that is described - almost an insider joke that becomes funny by discovery which brings one into the know. I'm not sure that is the best understanding of 'dry humor' but it seems like a start.

Post 18

Monday, June 22, 2009 - 2:21pm

Here is what Wikipedia has to say about "Sarcasm"

"Sarcasm is the use of sharp, cutting remarks or language intended to mock, wound, or subject to contempt or ridicule. ... It comes from the ancient Greek σαρκάζω (sarkazo) meaning 'to tear flesh' ... Oscar Wilde... declared that, 'Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.'"

For "irony," I like Koestler's description:

"The satirist's most effective weapon is irony. It's aim is to defeat his opponent on his own ground by pretending to accept his premises, his values, his methods of reasoning, in order to expose their implicit absurdity... Irony purports to take seriously what it does not; it enters into the spirit of the other person's game to demonstrate that its rules are stupid or vicious."
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Jake, the connection between your intended sarcasm and the presented context isn't adequate. The context we have at the time of your post is bounded by what we might reasonably know about Ted, the content of the open letter that he posted, RoR, and what we know of Obama. "Insecure" isn't connected to anything. To match the racist accusation requires reaching out to the those who see all Obama critics as racist, but it doesn't connect back to the rest of the context - except for the nature of letter being criticism - that's too thin, not a real connection. Our not 'getting' it was a normal reaction.

Your comment was a solid attempt at irony, but the only target one could find for the sarcasm would be those people who dismiss critism of Obama as racist - but they aren't part of the context. And without that sarcasim's target, the irony doesn't work. Do you see what I mean? Humorous statements are all about making those hidden connections. Your attempt left people looking for who was being attacked - where's the connection? Readers wondered, "Were you really attacking Ted?" That seemed unlikely, so some of us just dismissed it as a mis-statement or failed joke. Manfred couldn't find the failed joke part, so he asked. The absence of a humorous response in your readers was the evidence that the connection wasn't made. In other words, you might want to check your premise that only your mother wouldn't get that joke.

Jake, you are getting too sensitive. We've all been misunderstood - no need to get all inflamed and shit bricks... or to blame your readers for not understanding. Nor is there a need to damn the entire enterprise of analyizing words for meanings. I like using words for fun - I'd just ask you to lighten up about those cases where your fun with words turned out to be more masturbations than intercourse. (That last part was fun for me, was it fun for you? :-)

Post 19

Monday, June 22, 2009 - 2:58pm