RoR: Forum

CORRECTION: The date of the article should be 3/21/10 (not 3/12/10). Sorry for the typo. I wish there were a way to edit these things.

- Bill

Post 1

Wednesday, March 24, 2010 - 4:47pm

Ooops, I misread you, I'll fix it.

Post 2

Thursday, March 25, 2010 - 12:20am

I've been thinking about this whole debacle with ObamaCare, and I wanted to share some thoughts...and some potential perspectives no one has considered.

First, allow me to start by saying no, I don't support this even in the slightest.

However, I couldn't get over several right wing websites--including Rush Limbaugh himself--asking "Will this bill FINALLY show Americans how bad Democrats are?" To which my response is simply:

"Well, did the New Deal or the Great Society accomplish that?" We all know the answer; it matters naught; in time, they'll be voted back in to do more damage.

See, all ya have to do is give Americans a few tax cuts, and a pat on the head, & they're pretty much happy. Sickening really, but it's something I've learned about my country.

In fact, 59% of Americans were apparently opposed to this bill; I hates to tell ya, but that's really not enough. That means it was pretty much a slim majority that was opposed to this...most of whom likely don't even fully understand why this bill is so bad; that in itself is the key..as long as Americans utterly fail to understand basic economics( and btw, that's been since at least the 1830s; sorry, but its true), they'll pretty much gladly take any Socialism you give 'em, if you present it properly, despite what Mr. Limbaugh would lead you to believe. Basically, had the bill not passed now, it would've passed eventually...at that point, likely via a landslide.

And before everyone praises the GOP on this--um, DON'T. The only reason they avoided this bill entirely was due to one measure: the ABORTION CLAUS. Otherwise, they'd have gone full throttle on it too, despite what everyone thinks.

In fact, the GOP is now saying how this whole mess started with FDR & Woodrow Wilson; were that true, it'd be easier to reverse. Unfortunately, Americans have been whining for it since at MINIMUM Grover Cleveland's administration--thankfully, he said "no"( yes, folks, Democrats at one time WERE capable of saying no to spending!).

Just remember that Americans are humans FIRST; humans have never understood economics well enough as it is--let alone Capitalism. Even Cicero went on record as bringing this up...and if I'm not mistaken, he served during the earliest days of the Roman Empire.

Is there a silver lining to all this? Believe it or not, sort of:

despite one Dr. Hurd's beliefs that unlike the rest of Americans, Obama and company will get the best health care money can buy....well, yes and no. America was pretty much the one major hold-out in this crazy, mixed up world. May I remind everyone that a Canadian politician came here to get heart surgery cause he didn't trust the surgeons in his own country to handle the procedure, due to their system. Now, this guy gets the BEST health care from his country...and it was still piss poor, since they have socialized medicine. Well, now that we've welcomed it with open arms, politicians will have NOWHERE to go to for first-rate medical care. Will Obama and company be at the front of the line for medical care should something happen? Of course, it's in their Congressional medical plan! Will it pretty much be the same shoddy-ass medical care they've now bestowed upon America, because of this wonderful decision? Oh yes it will be! So yes, that's right...they've just screwed themselves without realizing it.

However, don't unfortunately think that Americans will wise up anytime soon. When the care turns out to be complete crap, the media will not finally 'wise up' and admit they were wrong. No no...they'll just blame the remaining doctors and hospitals for shady practices or something...and Americans will lap it up by the gallon, because no matter how many times they've admitted the media lies to them, they admit to BELIEVING those lies.

It's why I'm looking to become wealthy on the level of Bill Gates & Warren Buffet; I don't want insurance, I want my family to have the best health care possible that money can buy. And yes...such care does exist, but you gotta be willing to pay top dollar for it!

My belief is: if you need insurance, you can't afford it.

Post 3

Thursday, March 25, 2010 - 7:00am

Thank you, my thoughts exactly.

Remember that phrase they used about Obama: "Too much, too fast". So if it is slow enough - it's OK.

Democrats will pay the price in November for HealthCare Bill, but it means the Republicans will be in power for 2 years. Do you think they be able to keep their current popularity while being in power? I don't think so. Obama might be a 2-terms president. And just thinking about what he was able to accomplish in just 1 year makes me sick to my stomach.

Don't underestimate Obama and don't overestimate Americans. Americans had patience to ever-raising taxes for decades.

Well, that's just another tax, and Europe already got used to 10% unemployment, they only scream when it's more than 10.

(Edited by Maria Feht on 3/25, 12:33pm)

Post 4

Thursday, March 25, 2010 - 12:08pm

I agree. Cleveland was our best peacetime president.

Post 5

Thursday, March 25, 2010 - 3:36pm

And before everyone praises the GOP on this--um, DON'T. The only reason they avoided this bill entirely was due to one measure: the ABORTION CLAUS. Otherwise, they'd have gone full throttle on it too, despite what everyone thinks.

I completely disagree with this. If you took the time to watch the debate before the vote, you'd know why. The GOP had argument after argument, based on principle, as to why this was "Frankenstein" legislation (thanks to Paul Ryan for that memorable label). The Dems were one trick ponies, with no real arguments, only appeals to emotion.

Post 6

Thursday, March 25, 2010 - 4:38pm

Minor correction to Teresa's post (which is otherwise excellent). In addition to appeals to emotion, they also had lies about facts and ad hominum arguments against opponents.

Post 7

Thursday, March 25, 2010 - 4:47pm

lol!

Thursday, March 25, 2010 - 5:39pm

The fallacies were a flyin', that's for sure!

Post 9

Thursday, March 25, 2010 - 8:46pm

If the GOP did truly give as great an argument as you say, would the Democrats themselves not have realized they were signing their own death certificates with this bill?

I don't mean political death certificates, I mean literal, since their health care will now be complete crap, too.

Post 10

Thursday, March 25, 2010 - 9:34pm

I will tell you that whether or not Obama makes it to a 2nd term is still in question; if not, some other Socialist will wow the crowds & be elected.

The USA has pretty much been on borrowed time since the country's founding. Even the founding fathers--who themselves were extremely flawed in their understanding of freedom--had little faith in the populace to stick with freedom.

Humans are, by nature, emotion-based superficial creatures who enjoy being controlled & like to avoid accountability as much as possible.

Will America ever become Nazi Germany, as so many seem to fear? I don't think we're any closer now than we've ever been at any other point to be honest.

In fact, a common myth is that the "politicians no longer represent the people", yet nothing could be further from the truth.

Humans scam & try to control each other all the time, & they do it "with a smile". Hell, feel free to check out a little piece called the 48 Laws of Power. They're not the laws I wish society to go by...but they're the laws society DOES go by.

People get the government they deserve, & politicians perfectly represent those that vote for them.

It's why I no longer really pay much attention to politics-- I can't really blame the politician when someone else voted them in who "chose" not to be informed.

Americans WANTED universal health care, & IMO, they want a lot more too; they want the illusion of free entitlements, no matter how lousy, but will gladly pay more taxes to do it. They're humans first-- just read history.

Democrats--I gotta say it--are fully aware of this, & that's why they're so easily elected most of the time: they have a lock on how humans think.

Post 11

Thursday, March 25, 2010 - 9:42pm

Congress (i.e., the democrats) exempted itself from the bill's provisions.

Post 12

Thursday, March 25, 2010 - 11:05pm

Mr. Kay,

I disagree with you. You said, "The USA has pretty much been on borrowed time since the country's founding."

That argument presumes a kind of determinism and it is contradicted by the trends (up and down) through history. How did we get to the level of freedom we once enjoyed? How did we get to the Declaration of Independence? We evolved as a culture because humans are capable of volition and reason.
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You said, "Humans are, by nature, emotion-based superficial creatures who enjoy being controlled & like to avoid accountability as much as possible."

Please speak for yourself :-) That does NOT resemble me or my friends or a lot of people I know.

We are creatures that choose our degree of rationality and our degree of accountability. And those that pursue self-knowledge and understanding of the world around them cease to be superficial.
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You said, "People get the government they deserve, & politicians perfectly represent those that vote for them."

I tend to agree with that - to a degree. Any culture is driven by the fundamental ideas of the previous era, and the culture will effect the ideas and the character traits many people adopt. But that does not make people into determined puppets of their environment. For everything negative you have painted about our culture I could find positive traits that survive along side of the negatives.
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You said, "Americans WANTED universal health care, & IMO, they want a lot more too; they want the illusion of free entitlements, no matter how lousy, but will gladly pay more taxes to do it. They're humans first-- just read history."

Only some Americans wanted universal health care. And many voted for a variety of reasons - all wrapped in large amounts of ignorance. Some took the "Hope" and "Change" in a naive but positive way. And, there is a sizable portion of those voters who do want entitlements, but most of the group isn't willing to pay higher taxes, they see others paying and them receiving. History is a progression from barbarism towards freedom and civility - with lots of detours here and there, with lots of highs and lows. But we have massively increased our knowledge as we go forward. We are extraordinary creatures and there is more reason, long term, for optimism than not.

Post 13

Friday, March 26, 2010 - 1:25am

Well, you're right...not everybody is superficial and emotionally-driven; someone has to make everything work.

I'd say about 2% of society handles that; that's still a pretty big number.

If you wonder how we got to the level of freedom we did...well, much the same way that the Roman empire and Greek empires got to the levels of success that they did.

It doesn't matter if we started out with freedom; the founding fathers knew from Day 1 we couldn't hold it...I could've sworn I read a few quotes some time ago by Thomas Jefferson where he pretty much suggested no faith whatsoever in the people to keep freedom going.

The presidency of Andrew Jackson pretty much proved all that, as far as I'm concerned.

I repeat: check out what Cicero had to say. He nailed it pretty much perfectly.

Oh, of course they don't want to pay higher taxes; no one ever WANTS to pay them, but they're not gonna fight it when those taxes come, and feel free to look at the Great Society and New Deal for proof of that.

Mr. Keer, whatever Congress exempts themselves from matters naught at this point; when universal health care goes into effect in the USA, that will effectively eliminate the only resource the medical field had for making better medication and equipment..not to mention a host of better practitioners, as they will leave the field in droves; what's left is pretty much mediocrity and the bottom of the barrel. That's what everyone will be stuck with--including Mr. Obama, McCain, and their ilk. The only difference is they'll be first in line for it, while everyone else will have to wait. Yet that's nothing I envy them for, I assure you.
(Edited by R Kay on 3/26, 1:27am)

Post 14

Friday, March 26, 2010 - 9:06am

Chicago Tribune in 1934

76 years later US is still not Soviet Union. Maybe it will manage this time too.

(Edited by Maria Feht on 3/26, 10:35am)

Post 15

Friday, March 26, 2010 - 1:26pm

(Edited by Mike Erickson on 3/26, 9:56pm)

Post 16

Friday, March 26, 2010 - 9:23pm

I remember hearing a quote awhile back, but I forget who said it;

"If you think medical care is expensive now, wait till it's free"

Post 17

Friday, March 26, 2010 - 9:28pm

Saturday, March 27, 2010 - 2:59am

eh, that cartoon could've just as easily applied to the 1830s as well, suffice it to say.

Ah yes, the 1830s....the decade where Americans praised the Capitalist-hating/economy-devastating exploits of one President Andrew Jackson, and trashed the attempted economic recovery measures of one President Martin Van Buren....they also accused him of being an elitist, too.

So what happened that following election? Why....they decided "we want the everyman running the country; so let's elect this elitist douchebag posing as an everyman, known as William Henry Harrison"

While I can understand the concerns with electing elitists to high office, I would never want the everyman in there, either; I barely trust the everyman to prepare my burger properly at McDonald's, why in hell would I want him running the country?

I don't want someone ordinary...I want someone EXTRAORDINARY.

Ah well...'tis a pipe dream, and even when that man usually does come along....he's only in for 8 years, then we get some other schmuck.

Thank god '08 was my last year voting, ever; and no I didn't vote for McCain. My vote went to Reagan( and yes, I know he wasn't perfect, you don't need to tell me)...although a Facebook page I was on at the time called "I don't care who's running, I'm voting for Reagan" chastised me for actually doing so, saying it'd be pointless to actually vote for him, but appreciate his ideas.

My take was simply: I'm in the group, and I stand by the word of what I said I would do; if you don't believe that, DON'T BE IN THE GROUP. I stood by my word, and let 'em have it. I don't think the group exists anymore, but I could be wrong...

BTW, off topic...Mr. Keer, one of my two favorite Doctors is ALSO a Baker, but not that one. Good sir Thomas IS tied in second place for me though....with one Mr. Tennant! :D
(Edited by R Kay on 3/27, 3:01am)

Post 19

Saturday, March 27, 2010 - 6:40am