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Post 0

Wednesday, August 4, 2010 - 7:58amSanction this postReply
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I don't think the problem is allowing large campaign contributions. I think the problem is equal weighted democracy.



I created the graph above using data from the wikipedia article here. The wikipedia article had data for household incomes. I split households into men and women assuming each household has 1 man and 1 woman that both work, and "in 2004, women earned 23.5% less than men."

Assume that the people who earn >= $30k/year vote very differently than people who earn <= $30k/year.

No matter what kind of limitations you have on campaign contributions, the people who are only smart, reliable, capable, etc enough to have <= $10/hour jobs ($20,918/year) (the majority of people in the US) are the people who decide who gets elected.
(Edited by Dean Michael Gores on 8/04, 6:27pm)


Post 1

Wednesday, August 4, 2010 - 8:14amSanction this postReply
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I don't see big problems with his diagnosis. I know very little about Lessig, so I cannot comment on what he thinks the cure is.

At least he doesn't try to pin all the corruption on lobbyists; he seemed to put part of the blame on politicians. On the other hand, if he believes all lobbying is corrupting, then I disagree with that. When it is done in self-defense -- as opposed to stifling competitors or wanting to receive a subsidy -- then it is justified.


Post 2

Wednesday, August 4, 2010 - 8:28amSanction this postReply
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Dean:

No matter what kind of limitations you have on campaign contributions, the people who are only smart, reliable, capable, etc enough to have <= $10/hour jobs ($20,918/year) (the majority of people in the US) are the people who decide who gets elected.

I think you mean ">= $10/hour jobs" because when one integrates the area to the left of the median it is less than the area to the right of the median.

and:

Assume that the people who earn >= $30k/year vote very differently than people who earn <= $30k/year.

Assume that the people who earn >= $20.918k/year vote very differently than people who earn <= $20.918k/year.

Sam

WIJG?


Post 3

Wednesday, August 4, 2010 - 9:54amSanction this postReply
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Sam, the integration issue you raise is more due to how I plotted it. I grouped the data into 10k groups and put a pont at the top of the group. I should have put the points at 5k, 15k, 25k etc... the chart needs to be shifted 5 k to the left, but the median is at the right location (Edit: fixed it).

Then I went with 30k instead of 20k because that's probably closer to where people vote more capitalistly... even though the median is at 20k. At a threshold of 30k, more than half of the people
(Edited by Dean Michael Gores on 8/04, 6:59pm)


Post 4

Wednesday, August 4, 2010 - 12:37pmSanction this postReply
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0.  The root of the problem is the power that Congress has to sell.

1.  Lobbyinng (so-called) is only one person being paid to represent another (or others).  It is simply division of labor.  I live at the capital; you do not.  I can participate directly, you cannot.  I often tell my classes that (depending on size) for $5 or $20 each, we could hire an hour of a lobbyist's time to take our message to a representative or senator. Lobbying is your right.  You have the right to take to the government the voice of your friends, neighbors, coworkers or colleagues.   Lobbying is only freedom of assembly and freedom of association.

2.  Corporations do not contribute to campaigns. 

Individuals who work for them do.  The BP Pac is the Political Action Council of (some of the) BP employees (or stockholders).   

Corporations could be allowed to contribute because as artificial individuals they have the same rights you do.  Practically, of course, the law recognizes the collective nature of the business and will not allow some people to spend corporate resources on clearly special interests apart from conflicting or contrary interests of others within the organization.  (Except for unions, of course...)

3.  Ann Coulter (whom I detest) made the point -- I have not checked her facts -- that in 2004, the GOP campaign took in more money from donations of $20 and below than all of the money given to the Democrats, 85% of which was in contributions of $100,000 or more.  The point is that limiting contributions will not change the system. 

4.  As for the power that Congress has to distribute largess to ADM and BP and so on, the fact remains that we all know the pork barrel buyouts that went to bring the healthcare bill through Congress.  Everyone got something.  While Thomas Jefferson and Theodore Roosevelt can be quoted to warn against the rich buying the government, I can quote Xenophon on what happens when the citizens can vote themselves dole from the public treasury.  The rich getting megabucks is just a special case. 

5.  If the price of heroin collapsed, would you become a junkie?  Granted that the subisidies distort the market, people still decide on issues beyond pure price. 



Organic agriculture has grown to be a worldwide multi-billion dollar industry over the past dozen years, with global sales estimated at $23 billion in 2002. While US market-share is between 1-2%, this market niche is widely regarded as profitable and rapidly growing. This growth has been almost entirely consumer driven. Most organic crops command a higher price than comparable conventional food; the premium varies according to the commodity and market conditions. Consumers are willing to pay more for organic food based on a number of preferences not clearly understood or commonly agreed upon by market researchers.
http://www.sarep.ucdavis.edu/Organic/complianceguide/organic21.pdf

6.  To strike at the root would be to call for a radical solution, literally:  root = radix.  But we won't get into that here and now.

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 8/04, 12:49pm)


Post 5

Wednesday, August 4, 2010 - 7:47pmSanction this postReply
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This data is from wikipedia here. The data is directly per individual. Unfortunately its for 15 years and older. It would be preferable if all data was 18 years and older (voting age).

I looked more into these numbers... apparently these numbers are only for employed people. It leaves out "unemployed" people and "not in labor force" people. Looking at U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, this totals to 40.24% of people aged 16 and over. If I include these people, then we get the following chart:



What would happen if the decisions of companies were made with equal weighted per person votes, instead of shareholder value weighted votes? What would happen to wages (akin to wealth redistribution/taxes at the state and federal level)? What would happen to the company? I think if this wouild be forced upon a company, it would be equivalent to "socializing" or a form of wealth redistribution.

This kind of makes me think that weight of vote directly corresponds with ownership and power. Equal weight = equal ownership. What we produce is controlled (owned) by others due to the equal voting power per person.
(Edited by Dean Michael Gores on 8/04, 7:47pm)


Post 6

Thursday, August 5, 2010 - 3:58amSanction this postReply
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In The Secret of the League, after the collapse of the socialist government, the wealthy reformers change one-man-one-vote to voting shares.  Voting shares cost 500 pounds and you can buy as many as you want.  With the UK pound of the time worth $5 and with $1 being a day's wages for an unskilled laborer and with gold then at $20 per ounce, figure the cost of a share at about $140,000 to $250,000 in today's money.

How much do you think a voting share should cost? 


Post 7

Thursday, August 5, 2010 - 4:39amSanction this postReply
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We have computers that can count money, so one cent per "share" or vote. Your vote goes in an escrow account. You assign how much money you are willing to pay for each candidate, and you have to put the maximum in the escrow account.

Whichever candidate is assigned the most money wins. The government keeps the money that is assigned to the winning candidate. The remaining balance in each voter's escrow account is returned to each voter.

Post 8

Thursday, August 5, 2010 - 9:04pmSanction this postReply
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Seems to me that having voting be proportional to money is a bad idea. It would probably be a naturally unstable system and you'd end up with no middle class.

But, yeah, I do kind of agree that the problem is that Congress has the power to sell. Maybe some kind of constitutional amendment that created a separation of economy and state would help to address that, but then you have to define exactly what constitutes "economy" and what doesn't.

Post 9

Thursday, August 5, 2010 - 11:17pmSanction this postReply
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Sorry Jeff I didn't mean to hijack your thread : ).

I don't think its possible to stop bribery. I think no matter what people can find ways to improve the lives of corrupt politicians.

If you would like to argue about this voting scheme, I would counter your "unstable" and "no middle class" by pointing out that it works in companies in the free market. In many companies, polices of what behavior is desirable and what calls for termination are voted for by shareholders weighted by shareholder value. In such companies, there is a middle class of employees. Such companies are also frequently very successful and long lasting.

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Post 10

Friday, August 6, 2010 - 1:04amSanction this postReply
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But companies don't use force, so I'm not sure it's analogous. One reason voting stock works great with corporations is that the general interests of stockholders are very much in line. Everyone wants to maximize shareholder value.

With governments, the goal or purpose is not agreed upon at all, and most importantly, many people want to use the force of government to make themselves richer at the expense of others.

Post 11

Friday, August 6, 2010 - 6:25amSanction this postReply
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An interesting plot would be a composite of the time history of personal income history over our lifetimes.

As an infant, 0

As a 10 year old.

As a 25 year old.

As a 30 year old.

and so on.

I suspect it would start out low and end up high as each of us shuffled from one non-existing quintile freight train to the next.

It might even peak as we retired, and grow less again.

Or, we could take a snapshot at an instant of time of that composite, and ponder it. Perhaps even drag it into the 'race, gender, class' mix, to cripple yet more poor unfortunates, like that poor dumbass who went on a rampage in that CT beer distributor.

That was shocking to me. I had no idea they sold beer in CT.

Post 12

Friday, August 6, 2010 - 7:43amSanction this postReply
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Fred, I calculated some numbers for you.

Age           Income
< 15            3983
15 to 20      4661
20 to 25    12506
25 to 30    22324
30 to 35    28233
35 to 40    33086
40 to 45    36678
45 to 50    39680
50 to 55    41626
55 to 60    37935
60 to 65    30681
65 to 70    22599
70 to 75    17519
75 to 80    14592
80 to 85    15128
85+           14893

These are based on 1998 tax returns.
http://www.irs.gov/taxstats/indtaxstats/article/0,,id=96981,00.html#_grp5


Post 13

Friday, August 6, 2010 - 10:05amSanction this postReply
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"With governments, the goal or purpose is not agreed upon at all, and most importantly, many people want to use the force of government to make themselves richer at the expense of others." That criticism is true for the "each individual is alloted the same voting power" voting scheme as well.

My assumption is that people who have a higher income are more likely to have a better understanding of economics, and a better understanding of everything for that matter. Hence people who can afford to spend more $ voting will be making better decisions for themselves and for society than people who cant afford to spend as much $ voting.

Germany had a similar voting system as I propose, and then switched to equal voting power per person:


Germany emerges as an industrial power
Under the leadership of Prussia and Bismarck, Germany had emerged as a nation and as a world power. In 1871, 39 separate states were united. The kings of Saxony and Bavaria, the princes, dukes and electors, Brunswick, Baden, Hanover, Mecklenburg, Württemberg, Oldenburg, all paid allegiance to the king of Prussia, the Kaiser. This unity fulfilled a deep wish in German hearts[who?]; it gave them a sense of destiny[citation needed], and with unity there came an extraordinary upsurge of energy and expansion.
In 1871, there were 41 million citizens in the German Empire. In 1913 there were nearly 68 million, an increase of over half. And more than half of them were living in towns and cities.

But it was not merely an expansion of population. The foundations of economic strength at the turn of the century were steel and coal – Germany had made great strides with both:

Steel production multiplied by twelve in 30 years
Coal production multiplied by nearly five in 30 years
Manufactures multiplied by four
Exports multiplied by three
Exports of chemicals multiplied by three
Exports of machinery multiplied by five

In 30 years, Germany’s share in world trade had risen by a third. Now, in 1914, Germany was the most powerful industrial nation in Europe. The epitome of her industrial might lay in the firm of Krupp, whose first factory was built in Essen. By 1902, the factory alone had become "A great city with its own streets, its own police force, fire department and traffic laws. There are 150 kilometres of rail, 60 different factory buildings, 8,500 machine tools, seven electrical stations, 140 kilometres of underground cable and 46 overhead."

Under Bismarck, Germany had come closer than any other state to modern conceptions of social welfare. German workers enjoyed sickness, accident and maternity benefits, canteens and changing rooms and a national pension scheme before these were even thought of in more liberal countries. Yet the life of the workers was hard. The steel mills operated a 12-hour day and an 80-hour week. Neither rest nor holidays were guaranteed. In Germany, as in every industrial state, there was poverty and protest.

By 1912, the Marxist Social Democratic Party was the strongest party in the Reichstag, the German parliament. But the Reichstag did not rule Germany. The Kaiser ruled Germany through officials whom he personally appointed.

Note that between 1849 to 1918, Germany had a 3 class voting system. On 30 November 1918 Germany switched to everyone gets equal voting power.

Post 14

Sunday, August 8, 2010 - 8:24amSanction this postReply
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Merlin:

Cool. And, if we consider a plot of number of people at each age level, other than gross bulges, as in, the Boomers, the following is observed: A few million are born each year, and then some die way too young, and then some die young, and then some live to a media age, and then some live longer, and the some few live to a ripe old age.

And, the product of those two plots, over time, result in changes in the median income 'distribution.'

And if we consider 30 students walking into a classroom, where 2 take their education and 28 at most do what they are told, maybe, in an irony of Pareto Efficiency discussed elsewhere, the 2 do take their education do not take it from the 28 who do not take their education. A teacher, whose job it is to well offer, is just as happy when all 30 take their education, but there is an unequal 'distribution' of the taking of education. The 28 do not suffer fully from their failure to take their education, because they graduate into a world where their opportunities are not necessarily limited by their own failures to take their education. So still, this model could work.

When you multiply the cumulative affect of all of those distributions, you get humps in the 'distribution' of income in the nation.

And, when politicians lurch into that world looking for power, they know enough to count, and are going to alternately pander to the 28 with promises to feed them the 2, as well as pander to the 2 for bribes not to be eaten. And when they do so, they are only too willing to use plots of the 'distribution' of income to sell their power grubbing riding of all.

And still that corrupt model can work, until the politicians and 28 fail to modulate their riding of the 2 sufficiently(unlike the Mafia, who knows better.) When that happens, the 2 increasingly find other ways to participate in the economies(there really are way more than one of them, the myth of just one is sold by the politicians.)

In the old days, when the 2 would participate with effort at risk in the economies and provide wage jobs(effort not at risk)to the 28, the worst within the 28 were pandered to with stories that that the 2 were taking advantage of them, making them do all the 'real' work, while they skimmed off all the profit. Well, OK, decent folk don't want to do that to others...so they don't. Not if there are other ways to participate in the economies.

That leaves the folks who are not decent, who don't mind taking advantage of others. When we define employing others as a crime, then only criminals will employ others.

So, how is that model working out?

The economies are filled with folks who once were the 2 who have long ago concluded, if at all possible, 'neither an employee nor employer be.'

Only a fool would risk his own skin to take on the role of 'criminal' in the current tribal mess, and only yet criminals -- using OPM -- would gladly take on the role of 'criminal.'

This is the world built by our 'Grapes of Wrath' sensibilities, and it is a world built,in part, by incomplete understanding of plots of 'distribution' just like these-- a failure to take education.

regards,
Fred

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