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Post 0

Monday, October 31, 2011 - 10:40pmSanction this postReply
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The idolatry of the market?? What about the idolatry of government, or the idolatry of religion?!

Post 1

Tuesday, November 1, 2011 - 9:58amSanction this postReply
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The alliance of religious and totalitarian/socialist movements is not a new convergence; they were and always have been from the same root.

The global movements at the end of the 1800s were precisely frustrated religious movements seeking a new more muscular religion to supplant traditional religions.

When you scrape the surface of most of the Fabian/Socialist/Progressive and communist philosophical heirs, what you find most of the time is frustrated refugees from insufficiently muscular religion. Durkheim, Jung, Hegel, Kant. Even Marx only looked backwards to demonize classical religion; his was still a religion, just a modern muscular religion of the state.

It is telling, to me, that Scott Nearing published a book called 'The Social Religion' twice in the early 1900s: once while he was a campaigning Christian, and once after he became a campaigning Socialist. It was an entirely seamless transition.

This is a wealthy nation, the world is still filled with poverty and ignorance and want, and Jesus' mission down here on Earth remained unfulfilled. The True Believers were (and are) not going to let a little thing like the 1st Amendment stand in their way of establishing a national and then global theocracy, and Pope Let's Get Jiggy With It is just freshly jumping on the red bandwagon to insure his seat at what may be a new global table.

Are these out of control religious thugs going to get away with it?



Post 2

Tuesday, November 1, 2011 - 10:40amSanction this postReply
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I suspect that the easy alliances the far left often makes (religious nutcases, anarchists, communists, etc.) is always done more out of a common hatred than shared values or principles - these factions join out of hatred for the individual/liberty/capitalism.

But I suspect that the natural pattern that follows is either a failure to achieve their revolution, and they crawl back under their rocks. Or if a revolution succeeds, what follows will be a power struggle where one of the factions will purge the movement of all the other factions.

Mao needed to 'purify' China, and worked to eliminate the influence of not just capitalists, not just Christians, but even of the family since historically Chinese had formed a moral center arising the family. All of the different belief systems had to be stamped out and Maoism became the sole acceptable religion and the sole power.

The so-called Arab Spring was a revolution where every faction came together, marched together, and fought together. Tribal representatives, differing Islamic sects, communists, socialists, anarchists, students wanting freedom, even Code Pink was there. But now it will be the strongest or most ruthless of the factions that will win out and gather the reins of power. And you can bet that the other factions will be in danger for their lives.

The factions join together under a false banner. They don't really believe in what they are marching for, they are hoping for destruction of the existing system and then they dream that their faction's real goals will prevail. Movements like that hide behind lies, are blinded by self-delusion and motivated by hate.

Post 3

Wednesday, November 2, 2011 - 11:53amSanction this postReply
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Steve:

I suspect that the easy alliances the far left often makes (religious nutcases, anarchists, communists, etc.) is always done more out of a common hatred than shared values or principles - these factions join out of hatred for the individual/liberty/capitalism.

I agree with that, and don't know that there is a definitive answer to the following speculative question, but will ask it anyway:

Do you think that hatred is primal in some sense, or do you think that hatred is a necessity, a consequence, because the concepts individual/liberty/freedom/capitalism stand in the way of implementing their wants/vision for a collectivist utopia?

They believe in their religion, and their religion demands immolation of those concepts, and so, their hatred is a consequence, not a primal hatred.

An alternative is just a primal response to atavistic 'herd instinct' wiring, which perceives 'individuals' separate from the herd as an existential threat...which leads to their attraction to collectivist/tribal ideas, and then possibly rationalized reinforcement of their primal hatred.

Maybe some of each; God forbid, the reasons might vary from individual to individual.

And when I wonder that, I also wonder; in what way is it important how much of each? Is there a political or ethical implication if the path to that hatred of the individual is more or less intellectually arrived at/rationalized, or more or less primal/wired response to atavistic herd instinct genes?

regards,
Fred



Post 4

Wednesday, November 2, 2011 - 11:58amSanction this postReply
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Steve:

And while we are at it, there is the most dangerous possibility of all:

They believe that their hatred of the individual is actually love for all individuals. That, what is best for others/individuals is their tribal/collectivist worldview.

There is little protection from a paternalistic megalomaniac who claims their affliction is love for you, that the yoke they want to put around your neck is for your own good.

God, I wish our tribe would throw telethons and not elections for paternalistic megalomania.

regards,
Fred



Post 5

Wednesday, November 2, 2011 - 12:08pmSanction this postReply
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I love the Wikipedia link on "Herd Behavior"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_behavior


Herd behavior in animals

A group of animals fleeing a predator shows the nature of herd behavior. In 1971, in the oft cited article "Geometry For The Selfish Herd," evolutionary biologist W. D. Hamilton asserted that each individual group member reduces the danger to itself by moving as close as possible to the center of the fleeing group. Thus the herd appears as a unit in moving together, but its function emerges from the uncoordinated behavior of self-serving individuals.[3]


Symmetry breaking in herding behavior

Asymmetric aggregation of animals under panic conditions has been observed in many species, including humans, mice, and ants.[4] Theoretical models have demonstrated symmetry-breaking similar to observations in scientific studies. For example, when panicked individuals are confined to a room with two equal and equidistant exits, a majority will favor one exit while the minority will favor the other.


An out of control mob/tribe/herd, when it is panicking or misbehaving, or acting in some negative fashion, is jarringly once again "individuals." because that is what individuals do: act in a negative fashion, counter to the majority/tribe/mob.

And yet tellingly, in their anecdote, the majority crushes itself by acting en masse, while the minority, acting independently, finds the least crowded exit.


The collectivists are uncomfortable with wearing the 'herd mentality' hair shirt, and are anxious to spray-paint out of control herds/mobs as a collection of 'selfish individuals.' Totally ...priceless.


regards,
Fred



(Edited by Fred Bartlett on 11/02, 12:13pm)


Post 6

Wednesday, November 2, 2011 - 2:26pmSanction this postReply
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Fred,

I wrote, "I suspect that the easy alliances the far left often makes (religious nutcases, anarchists, communists, etc.) is always done more out of a common hatred than shared values or principles - these factions join out of hatred for the individual/liberty/capitalism."

And you asked, "Do you think that hatred is primal in some sense, or do you think that hatred is a necessity, a consequence, because the concepts individual/liberty/freedom/capitalism stand in the way of implementing their wants/vision for a collectivist utopia?"

Clearly, in any particular issue or set of issues where reason is on the other side, then the tendency is going to be biased in favor of using anger tactics (yell, act as if everyone has the right to whatever set of facts needs to be invented to serve their position, emotions are more important than reason, threats are good, attack your opponent personally, etc.) So it wouldn't be unreasonable to see constellations, patterns, of anger behaviors, or mob behaviors, or kinds of emotionalism, to be more frequently associated with ideologies that lack in rational support.

Ann Coulter's book "Demonic" makes the case the modern liberals are following a pattern of mob behavior and that liberal intellectuals have a kind of love affair with mobs.

She speaks of group-think, slavish following of intellectual fashions, creation of messiahs, occasional comfort with contradictions, myth making, a moral underpinning of the end justifies the means, and pandering to violence done in the name of their ideals.

We are talking psychology here and it would vary greatly from person to person. I suspect that the key aspects of the person's sense of life have brought him to the faction in question. In other words, each ideology has its "attractors" that pull in certain personality types more than others. And it will be personality issues that would set the core emotional agenda in how a believer behaves inside of that belief system. Some ideologies, or at least sects thereof, have a set of unstated rules on how members behave, say at a protest: can you set fire to cars? Can you wear costumes and have protest signs? Do you have to pick up after yourself or can you leave a mess? Do you have to be fair in your criticism of your opponents?

We all have ways of coping with self-esteem issues that will influence how we pursue political goals or defend against political arguments. Some people get angry because it feels safer than experiencing fear (and this relates to that herd behavior you mentioned - "Don't threaten my herd!") The more a person feels a need for group membership, the more threatening it would be to lose it.

It is easy to see some people choosing the violent, in-your-face kind of anarchy because it gives them an outlet for anger that is probably much more personal,and more fundamental to their psychological development than to politics. As to the particular collective (religious, communist, socialist, etc.) I'd guess that most join for the similar reasons to what we saw with the hippies in the sixties. They don't feel like misfits in some way that is fundamental, and they repress that and grow up creating an identity that allows them to be different, but still have a communal family to belong to.
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Bottom line: For the far left, the jihadists and the angry anarchists I'd say that hatred is almost a membership requirement - that is, a person not comfortable with hating individualism and total capitalism would self-select some other ideology. I think the ideology itself is built, or has been customized over the years to fit people who hate. And I do think the anger came first in the individual and then that person stumbled upon a group that the anger fits with.

Post 7

Tuesday, November 8, 2011 - 5:13amSanction this postReply
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Steve:

Re; the source of that primal anger.

I tend to agree with your assessment; that anger largely comes first. From where?

In Hitler's case, I suspect after reading Mein Kampf that it was existential fear imprinted from his childhood hunger. (He used the word 'hunger' many times in Mein Kampf, both literally and figuratively. As well there is the title to his book...)

There is a fringe movie from about 10 years ago, called 'Cube.' A really simple movie, on the surface SciFi-ish, but really, I think, a philosophical/psychological treatise. It is about folks who inexplicably find themselves in a 'cube', put there by they don't know who, for what purpose, a matrix of many rooms, some of which are lethally trapped. (A metaphorical universe.) The rooms have 'rules' they discover, the entrances are numbered, and they note a relationship between prime numbers and safe/unsafe rooms. They discover the rules and navigate the cube, but are dependent upon the math ability of one of the group who is able to factor numbers better than the others. The group is eventually largely destroyed, not by the cube and its rules, but by the irrational fears of some in the group. There is a big tell in the trailer when one of the group members says "You must save yourselves from yourselves." ... as well as the fact that the charachters largely have names that are also the names of prisons; we place ourselves in prisons that we build ourselves, including the cube itself.

Some of the tribe sees the universe as a largely malevolent place with harsh rules out of which there is no ultimate escape. One in which we are increasingly dependent on the undecipherable math of others in order to survive. Our inability to comprehend the universe and its sometimes harsh rules, as well as the discipline necessary not just to survive but to prevail, leads some to irrationally strike out in existential terror, to claw their way over others, even, to rule them if necessary to survive.

It's an interesting little film, an inexpensive rental on amazon. I wonder how much of its theme drives modern politics.

you can watch the trailer here:

http://www.amazon.com/Cube/dp/B001DM1V3E/ref=tmm_aiv_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1320757608&sr=8-1

regards
Fred

Post 8

Tuesday, November 8, 2011 - 10:49amSanction this postReply
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Fred,

I have a subscription to Blockbuster's mailing service. I put "Cube" in the queue - should be here in a week or so. Thanks.
--------------------

Off the top of head, thinking about anger in general, I come up with three kinds. 1.) Healthy anger (rationally targeted or not), 2.) Defensive anger which is converted hurt, shame or fear, 3) Background anger (like an underlying mood that is so common to a person that it becomes a personality trait).

Healthy anger is a natural response to a percieved attack on something we value. It is fast to rise, quick to disappear, leaves very little residue, and is proportional to the perceived threat. Emotions, in a sense, are things that should be consumed/experienced/digested and then gone. They aren't meant to be retained, held in, avoided or only partially experienced.

Emotional responses will be experienced differently by a person depending upon their level of self-esteem. With a high level of self-esteem a person experiences themselves as competent to handle what life throws at them and, on average, this means they are less likely to be consumed with anger, or to have the anger drive them into non-rational behaviors. When you feel more competent in general, you see fewer things as threatening. Very low self-esteem can amplify perceived threats till almost anything feels like it is at the survival level - overwhelming.

Higher self-esteem also means being more comfortable with being more assertive which means that it is easier to express anger - which helps to makes to makes it shorter in duration and that there won't be complications from holding it in, or presenting a false facade. High self-esteem is also a background feeling that one is, in principle, lovable and worthy of good things. And that makes it easier to express anger, fear, hurt or shame rather than to worry that it will drive others away or ruin things.

Very low self-esteem means that the person is probably always living behind a false facade, convinced that the real them is too awful to let others see and anything that threatens to 'out' aspects of the real self generates fear and that makes it hard to express anger.

Healthy anger is more likely to be focused on the actual threat and not as automatically ad hominem in nature - notice that the more ad hominem anger gets the further from reality it strays. Instead of feeling a minor amount of irritation that a person picked up something that belongs to you and started messing with it, in another person it could be an anger that focuses on the person as if they were always a threat and not just this action that is inappropriate, and straying still further, in another person the anger could be at all people of a certain type ("Just like a _______ (fill in a racial epithet) to mess with other people's stuff!!"). Anger that strays from the percieved threat or percieved threats that aren't rational (like racism) is very likely to be a defensive pattern.

Another type of anger is a conversion. It is the subconscious converting a far more uncomfortable emotion into anger. The underlying emotion would be either hurt, fear or shame. Emotions are never rational in a technical sense - they are emotions not reasoning, but it makes sense to talk about which emotions rationally follow from circumstances and which don't. The process of conversion is not rational, and it is always pathological. It will have side-effects and can easily, with time, become a pattern that is automatically invoked and the person will also make a practice of blinding themselves to what they are doing. Teens who suffer a loss that naturally causes some depression (hurt) will usually convert to anger. A small child that it threatened by his parents and made to feel fear day in and day out might choose to convert that fear to anger and to suppress that anger to avoid provoking the parent. Later, the boy might find ways to release the anger - maybe killing a small animal. Shame can be even more powerful than fear as an underlying emotion. It can feel much more efficatious to convert paralyzing shame into an anger. You get the idea.

Another kind of anger is related to suppressed anger - but it is better seen as product of this person's sense of life - as if someone has internalized a sense of the universe as against us. The threat to their values isn't a specific action happening at the moment, but rather that they are not right for the universe, and instead of experiencing that as shame, hurt or fear it becomes a background of anger, of irritation. (Moods and emotions are related yet different.)

There is a general principle that is worth noting: With healthy self-esteem at work, emotions are beneficial and often give a motivational impetus to focusing on reality and often tells us important things about ourselves and our relationship with some aspect of reality. All things remaining equal, the passage of time when we are acting out of higher self-esteem, we are tending to grow, to strengthen and develop. With lower levels of self-esteem, emotions may be triggers to defend against seeing reality, or a defense that drives one away from reality and makes it harder to correct bad information or unhealthy responses. All else remaining equal our acts that flow from lower self-esteem will stunt our growth and weaken us.

Post 9

Tuesday, November 8, 2011 - 10:08pmSanction this postReply
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It appears that there is also a sequel called "Cube 2:  Hypercube."  The original is available on disc from netfix, and the sequel is available for instant play. 

Post 10

Friday, November 11, 2011 - 9:14amSanction this postReply
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I think I rented "Cube" on Amazon for $2.99 or somesuch, then downloaded and watched on my computer one night.

These are low budget films. Don't expect huge production values as 'film.' What makes 'Cube' interesting, to me, was its philosophical/political interpretation, its theme, a part of which is: "Why am I here(in the case of the movie, in its allegorical universe,) and what am I supposed to be doing now as a result of that?"

It is an interesting morality play about how the existential terror of -some- of us facing those fundamental questions of religion can place all of us into a Hell of our own making.

Notice when you watch the story unfold that the cold, seemingly harsh universe yet has rules that are 'fair.' It is possible to not only survive in that universe, but prevail, with some effort(and in the case of this morality play, with some innocence and luck as well.) This particular allegorical universe leans heavily towards the inexplicably malevolent, but even with that lean, it is still 'fair.' Play by the discoverable rules, make the slightest bit of accessible effort, and there is no harm in even that malevolent universe.

But...that is not enough to quell the existential terror of -some-, and in the end "You have to save yourselves from yourselves"...and not the uncaring if slightly malevolent universe and its harsh but knowable rules.

Ayn Rand, OTOH, firmly believed even at the end of her life (Ayn Rand:In Her Own Words, recent documentary) that our actual universe is a benevolent universe, even with its occasional fringe pain and suffering--a kind of inverse to the staged harsh universe in Cube.

Interesting production note: the entire movie was shot with a single stage 'room' that was made to look like each of the (nearly) identical rooms.

I think it is a very clever piece of writing, as well as movie making. It seems to have a fringe cult following, but mostly as some kind of mysterious scifi B-flick. I didn't see it that way at all I thought the story was clear, not a mystery at all.

I also enjoyed "Pi", by the way, it showed up in the Amazon recommendations underneath Cube, and was drawn to it because of similarities with the book "Contact." I think Pi was Darren Aronofsky's first film (The Wrestler, Black Swan) An interesting look at True Believer/Cultism.

http://www.amazon.com/Pi/dp/B001DLWF8U/ref=pd_sim_mov_aiv_2



Post 11

Wednesday, November 30, 2011 - 12:00pmSanction this postReply
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I watched The Cube last night based on comments in this thread. I found the movie to be worse than a waste of time. I'd rather do something pointless like lay down on the floor for 2 hours with nothing but the stimulation of my own thoughts than immerse myself in a gruesome cube of unexplained malevolence with mostly insufferable, unbelievable characters who lead us to a dreadful, pointless conclusion.

Nihilism isn't philosophical; it's anti-philosophical.

(Edited by Brad Trun on 11/30, 12:03pm)


Post 12

Wednesday, November 30, 2011 - 5:33pmSanction this postReply
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That's kinda funny coming from a racist of such obviously low intelligence..alone with your thoughts? Must have been a lonely one sided conversation..

Post 13

Friday, January 13, 2012 - 1:28pmSanction this postReply
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Brad:

Even after I spelled it out beforehand, you seem to have totally missed the point of the movie. Yes, it had poor production values; it was an indy film.

Yet, it wasn't about agreeing with the depiction of the universe as a malevolent nihilistic Hell, or the literal pointless insanity of a manufactured malevolent 'cube.'

The writer went to the extreme of giving every character in the movie a name that was also an actual prison; was that even subtle? We put ourselves in prisons of our own making. Finally, they were literally in a kind of prison.

And if that wasn't enough, there is a scene in the very beginning when one of the characters explicitly says so that it would be impossible to miss the point, "You must save yourselves from yourselves." It's even highlighted in the trailer. It is exactly the point of the movie.

Which was exactly how the movie played out; the crazy cube was not undecipherable, and had rules that were coldly 'fair,' Figure them out, apply some effort, and it was possible to navigate the cube in complete safety, and prevail.

It was a metaphor for the actual non-risk-free universe with its harsh but fair rules, and some/too many among us as well find it an undecipherable, malevolent mystery that will in the end find a way to destroy us all; that is the source of childish existential terror, because indeed, childish existential terror is far easier than calculus(as symbolic of focused human effort necessary to decipher the rules and prevail in the universe.)

The little group of folks ultimately failed because of the irrational existential terror of -some- of them overwhelming the rest, in precisely the same way that the modern political struggle threatens to tube us all.

Some in the group found it to be an unbearable hair-shirt that they were totally dependent on the math capability of a minority of the group (a single girl) and that dependency drove them insane. In the end, the cube didn't destroy the group, the group dynamic and its infection of irrationality destroyed the group.

The lesson of the little morality play was crystal clear; in the cold, uncaring, but fair universe with its rules, the terminus of irrationality is complete destruction, and that is a punishment that mankind often imposes on itself.

Never going to win an oscar, not the point. But the politics was clear.



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