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Wednesday, November 6, 2013 - 1:55pmSanction this postReply
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Dean - I'm reading "The Transhumanist Wager" my Zoltan Istvan right now and might do a review of the book. Interesting topic!

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Wednesday, November 6, 2013 - 6:02pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,

Some recent insights to problem we discussed long ago.

There are a few ways that people manipulate others which you asked whether it would ever be the case that people would stop being manipulated in the fashion.

Here are such manipulations:
1. God: "God is good"
2. Faith: "To believe this message without evidence or reason is good."
3. Duty: "To give up your own goals and accomplish others' goals instead is good."
4. Hope: "To take actions with hope that the actions will result in our goals being accomplished, without identifying what our goals are nor predicting the effects of the actions is good."

Obama was very successful with #3.

All of these manipulations revolve around getting people to believe ideas by hearsay (faith) or deception (being told by a person that they say "I believe/saw X" where X is a lie) rather than self-performed observation and reason. Furthermore the meaning of "good" is heavily manipulated.

1. Use "good" to refer to events that increase goal attainment for most everything. But don't ever define what good means... just say something is "good" whenever the person feels happy/smiles/etc... but never say why things feel good to a person (one feels good/happy when one identifies increased goal attainment).
2. Also use "good" to mean correct. For example, say "You did a good job on that test!" even if the test was on worthless information which will have no positive effect on the individual's future. This is particularly effective if the test is multiple choice and all of the choices are invalid. Or if the answers are essay, and only answers that contain contradictory or useless information are rewarded as the best. Just like Post-Modern art. Its the annihilation of the meaning of "good" answer from meaning a valid and useful answer to just "Yes, that is what I the manipulator have arbitrarily chosen as the answer I am looking for."
3. After establishing the Pavlov's dog relationship in #1 and then de-linking "good" from the individual's goal attainment in #2... Now you can start injecting ideas and goals.

Example: Teacher says "God is good".

What does good mean in this sense? Here are some options:
1. "God makes you feel happy." This could be true if the person thinking that there is someone out there watching over their shoulder to protect them that brings them piece of mind. Particularly with the suggestion that maybe the person doesn't help you in this life, but in the "After-life" (Using faith)
1. (Underlying) "God increases your personal goal attainment". But what goal? Goal of the manipulator? Goal of the student? God's own goal? And how do we determine what God's goal is? Using faith!
2. God is the answer I the teacher am looking for. Teacher: Who made the world?" Student: "God" Teacher: "Good! (that is the answer I wanted!)" This is just the manipulator making the student a Pavlov dog. The issue here is whether the student can identify whether the ideas being learned are useful. If the student doesn't have the reasoning ability to figure out that learning information that is contradictory to reality & information that has no use for his personal decision making is both a waste of time and his mental ability, or that the student is not very good at pattern recognition (required for inducting action->effect relationships)... then the subject is unfortunately stuck with being manipulated... the world and other people's behavior is too complex for them to be able to predict the results of their own actions. Having a world full of invalid ideas, and a person always accepting some invalid ideas, the person might not ever get the results he expects from his actions, destroy his self confidence further and give up... even if he did have the mental ability beyond the dog, and particularly when a manipulator is administering the invalid ideas. The manipulator could say "I believe X and look how successful I am!" When really he doesn't believe it (false flag), he just wants others to think that's what he believes in order to perform this form of mental attack.

But then the manipulator must define what God wants. This must necessarily always be by faith, for there is no evidence or reason... unless you just look at what happens in nature (life forms struggle to grow, maintain themselves, and reproduce) and say that God wants life forms to do that to their greatest ability. Generally only deists would say this answer, the rest like to include their own little manipulative twists into their favored definition of God and what "God" wants.

"Faith is good":
1. Believing things without evidence nor reason makes you feel happy. This could potentially be true... although if a person does gain happiness from that then that's clearly a thing that natural selection would cull.
1. (Underlying) Believing things without evidence nor reason increases your personal goal attainment. This is simply an invalid statement. In general, the invalid component of ideas is either non-effective or harmful to goal attainment. An example of non-effective would be: Lets say a lair said "Get out the house is on fire!" So you leave the house. Then the house collapses into a sinkhole into the earth and you survive. The lie part was that the house was on fire. The useful part was "He thinks we should get out of the house!"
2. "God wants you to have faith in him" -> circular reasoning, non-verifiable. Since there is so much nonsense in many's definition of God, the statement is incomprehensible. In fact, there's another form of attack: "God is incomprehensible, but I still believe in him" (false flag/self contradictory nonsense. Potentially natural selection could cull out people who fall for this... because there is a difference between not being able to accept something as valid because you don't have the information and not being able to accept an idea because its self-contradictory. Basically how this would work is that people who feel angry/sick when they hear something that doesn't make sense to them, they simply ignore/reject the idea and are repulsed by the though of using the idea unless they somehow resolve the contradiction. I think that personally that is exactly how I feel... I get angry when someone says something that I don't understand, and I would feel absolutely sick to my stomach to even consider the possibility of accepting an idea without evidence/reason. That's why I didn't want to get baptized in my Mother's Evangelical Christian church, because I thought that if I went through with it I would be lying to everyone because there wasn't any way that I'd fully accept the Jesus story... I needed to be able to see and touch and smell and hear God while I'm fully conscious not just once in my past (because I'd later think must have just been a dream), but on a frequent basis. Ayn Rand identified: "contradictions do not exist", which is not quite true. Rather, "Within a truth set, there are no contradictions." Or Teacher: "(implied: To pass this test, you must give the answer faith) How do we need to accept God by?" Student: "Faith!" Teacher: "Correct!"

False flag manipulation... I don't think its possible to naturally select brain designs to identify false flags. Its just a question of capacity of pattern recognition. I guess here still in false flag, its a faith/hearsay thing. Just because someone says they think a certain thing, one can never know what a person is actually thinking, you can have confidence, but not absolute certainty... well unless you had used some major singularity technology to be able to at the microscopic level read all of the neuron's firing rates and neural connections of the brain and then send the info out of the person's brain to a super computer with such high memory and processing power that it could simulate the person's neural network from sensory to Central Nervous System... but if you can do that then... things would be different, there would be computer life forms more advanced than humans, and those computers wouldn't be able to know what the other computers are thinking just like the relationship between humans today. Anyways, since you have to take what a person says into consideration of truthfulness via induction, induction is pattern matching, different people have different levels of pattern matching ability than others.

Duty... well the thing with humans is that through reasoning we can change how we feel about things. So if you make mistakes while reasoning and come to conclusions without having observations and reasoning that supports it, but just willy-nilly accept arbitrary ideas (faith!) then the duty idea can be injected.

Hope... similar to duty.

So I think there are two aspects that come into play here on whether a person would be vulnerable to these attacks:
1. A victim has lower pattern recognition ability (induction+deduction) than the manipulator. Then Pavlov:Dog = Victim:Manipulator.
2. The person feel the sense of anger when hearing something he doesn't understand, or the feeling of sickness/outrage to the thought of accepting an idea he doesn't understand/have evidence for. A person with lower pattern recognition (induction+deduction) ability would frequently feel anger in this way. The anger would be self directed "I want to understand but I can't!" or outward directed: V1. "You talk nonsense!" (confidence due to ability to deduce and detect contradiction) V2. "You can outthink/outcompete me and hence with your existence I will not be able to control as much of the world, instead you will be able to control me, and I'm not sure whether I can trust you so maybe I should try to incapacitate you."

Conclusion

So I think in the long term, evolution will cull for people who lack trigger for anger/sickness/outrage that I am talking about. But I think there will always be people with different pattern matching (induction+deduction) speed/efficiency/ability, so there will always be the Pavlov:Dog Victim:Manipulator relationship. Its just that the "dogs" would eventually feel like worried/upset cattle when the rancher is herding them into the slaughterhouse... when today many people happily/consensually march to the slaughterhouse.

Sorry for the poor formatting and grammar. I'm overloaded with work right now so I'm taking shortcuts.

Post 2

Wednesday, November 6, 2013 - 6:14pmSanction this postReply
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Oh, another little thought...

To some, faith means confidence. But when you look at what they think, you conclude that there's no way they could accept an idea with confidence...

But you are the one who is mistaken. To that person, believing in God because a bird pooped on their windshield while they were questioning God was as good of evidence as anything else... and they see confirmations of their belief all over the place, and they see contradictions between what they believe/expect and have all sorts of strategies on how to act in life not by their own conclusion but because others said that's the best way... because they actually don't have the ability to deduce/induct such complex relationships.

They can't do simple algebra. If you can't do simple algebra... that means you can't perform all sorts of deduction logic. Algebra is a process of deduction.

So to them, again, its Victim:Manipulator Dog:Pavlov.

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Wednesday, November 6, 2013 - 6:30pmSanction this postReply
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Hm. Another thought...

Even within Objectivists, there are different levels of mental ability. Some Objectivists have found Objectivism to be agreeable, but then when it comes to everyday things they are still victim to Victim:Manipulator Dog:Pavlov.

For example, the 911 false flag and the US dollar monopoly. When I say that the real purpose of the Federal Government is to enforce military control over the the world to force US citizens and international trade be with US dollars (so that the elite bankers can print to buy whatever money can buy)... many scoff at me. They can't look at the buildings fall like I can and see that it was a controlled demolition which included the spectacle of airplanes crashing into the buildings. They can't see that on 1933 the Federal government stole American's gold, or in 1971 the worlds. They can't see that money printing is theft from their slave labor. That the national media was controlled by FCC monopoly forces and money printing to out-compete private funding for commercials and journalists/news workers.

Do what the Feds say, or else you don't get the easy money: redistributed wealth loot. Vast infrastructure full of people that have been trained this way implicitly and via false flag belief manipulation and firing the dissenting workers.

"I'm a scientist who works for the government and I believe the twin towers and building 7's steel frame structure exploded into pieces due to airplane fires and an office fire."

I think for myself. I've seen metal connections snap, and I've seen metal heat up and bend. I'm here to tell you that steel frames don't explode into pieces. They bend and lean and snap, but not explode. But who cares if I say this? From your perspective, its just hearsay from me too.

"Give me control of a nations money supply, and I care not who makes it’s laws."
- Mater Amschel Rothschild

"Wizard's First Rule: People believe lies due to desire or fear"
- Terry Goodkind

"This is your last chance. After this, there is no turning back. You take the blue pill - the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill - you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes."
- The Wachowski Brothers

Take the red pill. I know its a hard swallow. Accept reality for what it is evident to be. Acknowledge that there are powerful evil forces controlling most people, complacent fools, who would otherwise be friends but due to their simple minds being manipulated, they have been made your enemy. Know there is some safety: you are still a producer, and the elite manipulators will not strike you down too badly unless you advertise your beliefs and goals, and they still need producers like you to move the world, things are getting dicey due too there being so many parasites they need more producers to tax, even if you are unwilling, at least you help keep this mess going a little while longer.

I hope I won't be assassinated, but I feel like I couldn't live any other way than to discover and reveal the truth. I don't think they will care too much unless I try to advertise to the complacent fools. I'm not suicidal, I hope that they realize that when it comes to it, they can simply ask me to stop and I'll stop what I'm doing and join them, I would be interested in discovering ways to assist my foolish enemies in learning the hard way.
(Edited by Dean Michael Gores on 11/06, 6:52pm)


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Thursday, November 7, 2013 - 6:04amSanction this postReply
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Congratulations Dean,

I'll have a read through your website and this thread.

Post 5

Thursday, November 7, 2013 - 7:08amSanction this postReply
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Yea... I've been sleep deprived over the last week, so I'm a little over the top right now. Sorry about that. :)

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Thursday, November 7, 2013 - 7:57amSanction this postReply
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Lol, I didn't expect an apology. It is a lot of material to consider, but I'll get to it. I've only had the lightest of brushes with Transhumanism, so I know very little about it.

I didn't sleep last night, so I'm experiencing a bit of mania myself.

This is somewhat odd, well, not really, but there is a user on Objectivist Living who has just mentioned the completion of a four-part nonfiction series on his own life philosophy. Additionally, he just released a work of fiction which I assume deals with his life philosophy. It sounds rather interesting, though its premise may deter other Objectivists from reading it.

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Friday, November 8, 2013 - 6:57amSanction this postReply
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More on the reasons why people accept ideas without evidence/reason: Just as Terry Goodkind says...

Say when you are faced with a situation that is really gloomy:
1. You recognize that you did some really despicable things in your past, and you don't feel like there is any way to reimburse the victim (given you realize you don't want to do it anymore makes retribution and incapacitation no longer necessary). Or maybe incapacitation is necessary because most of the time you know what is "right" and "wrong"... but sometimes you get urges and you just do what you feel instead of what you know is best for the fun/whatever of it that brings momentary pleasure.

Christianity is good at picking up on that self guilt... "You are damned forever, but God has made a way out, all you have to do is believe in the existence of God (in secret: haha, God as I define my new slave!), and you will be forgiven!" Some people look for that "easy out" for their self guilt for their past actions, when really they could just use some counseling on how like everybody makes mistakes sometimes, just restitute and your good.

So the guilt -> forgiveness method is duel: first make a person believe that there is no way to "make right with the world/victim" when you commit force initiation (or arbitrary faith based rules)... in fact Christianity completely separates good/bad from goal attainment. In Christianity, an action is good or bad depending on rules (which is nonsense).

Good and bad and justice only come into play between people who live in harmony of interest (their actions have synergy on each others' goal attainment). Between people who have conflicting goals or conflicting ideas on how to accomplish the goals and hence have destructive actions to the other's goal attainment, they are enemies, and so long as they are enemies, justice as in restitution from one of these people is nonsense, they already are fighting against each other attempting to see who can control the other in order to enforce retaliation and incapacitation. Restitution is only performed by friends and incapacitated enemies (slaves). In this sense, guilt is the identification that you have tarnished your character to the victim and other friends and that you should restitute in order to stay on the victim's "good side" (stay their friend), otherwise you are in the state of living at the expense of the other, which means you reduce the other's goal attainment, you are their enemy.

So as you can see, Christianity completely de-links good & bad from their true meanings (impact on goal attainment of each participant in a context). Instead it supplies rules on certain actions deemed as good or bad irrelevant of participant goal attainment. Hence in Christianity there's not really any measure of how "good" or "bad" a person is relative to any goal attainment. Its not even clear what the Christian God's goals are: "Just follow his rules because he knows what you should do, and you are too stupid to understand (his reasoning on how it attains his goals)." I guess they suggest that God's goal is to reward those who obey his command and punish those who don't, but other than that, the question of what is God's goal is left unknown (due to humans being stupid)? So since there is no measure of good or bad, of helpfulness or harm, of degree of increase or decrease on a person's goal attainment... there is no concept of restitution being a way to "make good" with your past victims. Or if a Christian does recognize this, its only because that's God's rule, but they say from God's point of view, the breaking of one of God's rules is in God's mind cannot be restituted, because God's goal is for you to obey.

Accept the Christian manipulator's idea of God, and they give you the ability to immediately feel forgiven/"made good" on your past initiations of force (or maybe just Christian God's rule breaking)... the only price is that from then on you have to obey the rules of their God. Some people find this price is worthwhile... and via argument of authority/popularity/historical belief/peer pressure they are swayed into believing the scam without evidence. That is the core of it.

=====

Then there is the case where a person finds that they are living in a violent world where theft and murder are rampant, and to believe that:
1. There is an "after life" where God will administer justice. This gives an "easy out" mental way for oppressed/enslaved people to feel like "justice" will eventually come, when in reality this is the only life we will have and if you don't bring justice against those who initiate force against you and your friends then you and your friends will be slaves, and its unlikely that any Superman will come to the rescue.
2. Its easier to think of your slave master as your protector rather than your enemy, because if you thought of them as your enemy than you would then realize the extent of their harmfulness against your goal attainment and the extent of your enslavement, your hate against them, you feeling that you should retaliate, and your realization that retaliation may very well bring you death due to the size and power of your master. So thinking of your slave master as your friend is an easy out escape from having to live a life where you are conscious of being a slave.

There's another way. But the manipulators and slave masters don't ever tell you:
#3 Accept your current place in life for what it is, and still work to attain your goals to whatever extent you can. Maybe one day you our your children will develop the means to defend yourselves and hence put an end to your enslavement. Such might make life enjoyable rather than the depressing worthlessness feeling that results from #1 where your actions no longer matter or #2 where you live in a state where deep down somewhere you still know you are evading that you are a slave. But this one is very hard to do. You have to face that most everyone in the world is either a manipulator or has been manipulated. You have to realize that in reality, all of those people are your enemies, and right now since you have been on the manipulator's side, that you don't actually have any friends, for the friends that you really should have you've betrayed by your past alignment. That it actually is really hard to establish trust with others, its impossible to know which side another is on deep down inside them.

Somewhere deep down the manipulated Christians might sense the suppressed fright that they have been lied to and that their leaders and friends are actually their enemies, and they instead of facing that fear they continue to suppress it, hate that feeling of fear, and Atheists bring that fear back to them, so they associate feeling that fear with the Atheists, and hence end up concluding that they fear is either that they fear the Atheist or that they hate the Atheist due to the Atheist making them feel that way, or now that the Christian has stubbornly chosen sides, the Atheist is an enemy. The same relation goes for citizens of protection rackets.

So if you take #3... then life is very different than #1/#2. You have to think for yourself. If you chose to be honest with yourself like #3, then that means you might have to lie to your enemies in order to prevent potential harassment (out of sight out of mind) and remain safe. It can be hard, and risky, to take such a path in life. No wonder so few chose this path? If only there was some way to expose the manipulations, and for the manipulated to all at once break free. That would require that both they have the self confidence that they can think for themselves, and that it won't go badly for them when others find out they've rejected the manipulation.

Fortunately for the 911 manipulation, at least we don't have to live in too much fear. Potentially the elite manipulators are making a list of people to assassinate... I wouldn't think they'd kill all who know their ruse, just a few in order to maintain fear/power, but they need us who think for ourselves because we are so inventive and make new technology and produce tons of market goods.

Bitcoin, by the way, is an excellent new technology that enables producers to defend their market value. Its very difficult to steal bitcoins when you encrypt your private keys with passwords and only enter the passwords into non-interconnected devices. And as it stands the manipulative Feds and Christians etc don't have any argument as to why its bad. Eventually I suppose some will try to think of a way to say "for your protection" or "because God's rule is"... which will make it difficult to use bitcoin in large business, but Bitcoin will always exist and be traded in private between #3 friends. I don't think they can stop it from being used everywhere in the world, and where ever it is used people will flourish.
(Edited by Dean Michael Gores on 11/08, 7:17am)


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