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Tuesday, February 10, 2015 - 2:22pmSanction this postReply
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Excellent article, Ed!

A tone of indignation alone is supposed to prove the fallacies of political opponents.

This is so often the case when examining what the Progressives have to say.  It feels as if discarding reason had already been secretly agreed upon, and that in this totally lopsided intellectual contest between reason and their bizarre, sarcastic emotionalism - reason isn't even heard.  It is as if we have new generations who have been university-conditioned to respond to a certain tone of voice as the cue to nod their head in agreement and smirk at the wasted efforts of those who persist in sticking to facts and logic. 



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Wednesday, February 11, 2015 - 11:11amSanction this postReply
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A tone of indignation alone is supposed to prove the fallacies of political opponents.

 

This is so often the case when examining what the Progressives have to say.  It feels as if discarding reason had already been secretly agreed upon, and that in this totally lopsided intellectual contest between reason and their bizarre, sarcastic emotionalism - reason isn't even heard.  It is as if we have new generations who have been university-conditioned to respond to a certain tone of voice as the cue to nod their head in agreement and smirk at the wasted efforts of those who persist in sticking to facts and logic.

 

I think it's more likely that, as people become more and more familiar with their own worldview it starts to feel sort of obvious to them. This is the "Curse of Knowledge". Once one feels like they know something they can no longer appreciate what it's like to not know it. Then it starts to feel as if people who disagree with them are all idiots or evil or both because it seems like they keep bleating on about how the sky isn't blue.

 

I don't think it's reasonable to always expect everyone to always put forth the best defense of their beliefs. Explaining that the sky is blue gets tiring after a while, and eventually you just want people to shut up and agree with you so that the discussion can move forward.

 

I think it's important to work together with one's opponents in order to foster reasonable debate. If we sense that our opponent is just mindlessly hurling insults or sarcasm, we must take it upon ourselves to tell them that we may not know the things that they know. What's obvious to them, may not be so obvious to us. (Though if they still persist in their annoying behavior, it's probably best to just exit the conversation.)



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Wednesday, February 11, 2015 - 5:54pmSanction this postReply
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I think it's more likely that, as people become more and more familiar with their own worldview it starts to feel sort of obvious to them. This is the "Curse of Knowledge". Once one feels like they know something they can no longer appreciate what it's like to not know it. Then it starts to feel as if people who disagree with them are all idiots or evil or both because it seems like they keep bleating on about how the sky isn't blue.

 

I understand what you're saying Naomi, but I think it is much more than that, and far less innocent in it's nature.

 

If we step away from political or moral debates in general and talk about a disagreement say in a technical area (like software development, as an example), I've found that those people who the are the most knowledgable - especially those at the very top of their profession - are often the least likely to treat others as idiots, much less as evil.  And instead of that "curse of knowledge" what I've most often seen is a kind of clarity in thought that makes it easier and more likely that their explanations cut right through the errors of the less knowledgable and without sarcasm or personal attacks. This isn't just an accident, but rather a matter of a benevolent confidence that comes with established competence and extensive knowledge.

 

I would say that the 'innocent' progressives have simply spent their formative intellectual years in an environment steeped in progressive thought (the content) and were taught to respond to other views with sarcasm, ridicule and personal attacks (the method). And that it is a bit more than just an unemotional conditioned-reflex to respond in that fashion. It is also a defense of the pack against an outsider and against a threat to the entire way of thinking. It is an attack on something that might threaten the sense of superiority that was sold to the newly indoctrinated 'thinker'.

 

Think about this... if the cause were as you say, "...because it seems they keep bleating on about how the sky isn't blue" then we would see instances of an argument appear in stages.  The starting stage where positions are announced or become apparent.  The next stage would be where each party tries to show that it's side is the better one to take, and then comes the stage where exasperation begins to show because the other side won't come around, and finally, we would see accusations of evil idiots coming from the progressives.  But it doesn't work that way.  The progressive arguments automatically start with a two-pronged nature: A politically correct position that is held as a moral absolute, and the assumption that the other side is made of evil idiots.  You don't see a stage where reason is present - not in any sense of being open to hearing opposing logic - only the unwavering assumption that opponents are evil idiots.



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Thursday, February 12, 2015 - 6:53amSanction this postReply
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Naomi, in your profile, you state:

23/f/Chicago, IL *fun fact: This is the site that turned me onto objectivism and Ayn Rand seven years ago. Since then, my opinions have changed dramatically. *While I still consider myself an objectivist with a small 'o' I now identify as a collectivist and a fascist, politically.

Could you please elaborate on this "collectivist" and "fascist" meaning so the rest of us can more accurately interpret the meanings of your posts?

 

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 2/12, 6:53am)



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Thursday, February 12, 2015 - 7:33amSanction this postReply
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I'll make a thread about in the Banter suborum so as not to derail this thread.



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