About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadBack one pagePage 0Page 1


Post 20

Monday, August 15, 2005 - 2:42amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
The topic is drifting.  Fraud and conspiracy are interesting and they apply tangentially to the topic.  However, they are not the topic.  I suggest that the reason they are addressed is that the actual topic is more difficult than you might guess.

I gave it some thought and I have no answer. 

If a man stands three feet in front me waving his hands and shouting threats at me, how do I feel?  Ah! But feelings are not tools of cognition and he is not responsible for my feelings.

INITIATION has two meanings.  It means "who strikes first." It also means "the instant of beginning." 

The problem is really two problems. 
What does it mean to strike first?   
When does that "strike" happen?

(And I do not have an answer.  I appeal to higher wisdom here while I cogitate.)


Post 21

Monday, August 15, 2005 - 2:44amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
The "fighting words" doctrine has been argued to the Supreme Court. 
'Tellingly, despite continued reaffirmation of the fighting-words doctrine, the Supreme Court has declined to uphold any convictions for fighting words since Chaplinsky."
http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=13718

The test is what persons of common intelligence would understand to be words likely to cause an average addressee to fight.
SOURCE: Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Edition
http://americandefenseleague.com/fightwds.htm

I submit that Objectivists are not "of common intelligence."  I also point to "Verbal Judo" a skill known to all civic police officers and many others in security.  The purpose of verbal judo is to obtain compliance without the initiation of force -- and I point out that it is employed by those to whom Objectivists specifically grant the right to initiate force.

In 1981 Dr. George Thompson began breaking ground in the world of police work where officers must generate voluntary compliance from citizens under the most difficult of conditions.   This “Tactical Communication” edge gave officers a tool that saves lives, lawsuits, and complaints by teaching police officers how to consistently avoid force whenever possible and to use their presence and words as persuasive tools.
http://verbal-judo.com/newfile63.html


Post 22

Monday, August 15, 2005 - 7:30amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Randy: I think the whole issue is a contextual one. Certainly an Islamist militant who has a history of inflammatory speeches caught with an explosive device of the type used in terrorism could be prosecuted, whether he could be linked to others or not. The husband who had planned for many years to club his wife with a table leg and had not acted upon it would have a good case.

Sam


Sanction: 3, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 3, No Sanction: 0
Post 23

Monday, September 5, 2005 - 10:54amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
To me, I think it would be a matter of perception. (as, indeed, context seems to define things in Objectivism) The key word, I believe, is *initiate.* A quick hop to Dictionary.com gives me this primary definition:

To set going by taking the first step; begin

This is the only definition, in fact, that relates to the use of the word that applies here. And the key phrase seems to be "taking the first step."

The "first step" in violence is not necessarily the violence itself. In fact, it's rarely the first step. The THREAT of violence is clearly coercion in and of itself. I do not believe one could possibly argue that someone saying "give me your money or I'll kill you" is not initiating violence, even if a weapon is not in plain view. A man wouldn't logically say something like that unless he could back it up, so he must have a weapon somewhere. Or perhaps he knows kung-fu. Either way with all things being equal, in the interest of self-preservation, I *must* assume someone who is threatening to take my life, even without visible means of doing so, in fact has the means and is planning to do so.

But this must be weighed, of course, by the plausibility of the threat. If I'm holding my girlfriend down and I'm tickling her, and she shouts "stop stop or I'll kill you!" she clearly is not threatening my life. Nor can a bum on a street shouting that he'd like to kill the president be considered a credible threat as he very clearly not in any position to do so.

So the initiation of force, as I see it, would primarily depend on the power of one making the threat in relation to the one being threatened. Which, really, is pretty much the same policy we have in America. A child threatening to kill a man with his bare hands is clearly no threat and you aren't justified in killing him. However, if the child has a gun... suddenly he IS a threat and killing him might be justified.

I think it's one of those places where you have to admit that there are no hard and fast rules. It's entirely based on the relative power of those involved and the perceptions of each.

What I find more interesting is to question at what point the blatant threat of the use of power - in whatever form - has become "initiation of force." Threatening to kill someone clearly is. But what about, say, embargoes? That probably involves force. How about punitive tarriffs? That's definitely throwing your power around... Or what about workers threatening a walkout? "Give us what we want or we cripple your plant?" That would seem to be coercive force, especially if the manufacturer is in the logically superior situation... yet Atlas Shrugged itself is BASED on the concept of using a strike as a power tool. (and indeed, when the workers went on strike at Rearden's plant, she had to turn them into a destructive mob so that they would suddenly be "wrong," when, in fact, a non-violent but deeply coercive strike is completely possible and happens all the time)

There are so many subtle possibilities in there for interpretation of what EXACTLY constitutes "initiation" of force. What it really seems to boil down to, as I said, is blatant exercise of *power* rather than literal "force." But I don't think that's what Rand intended.

At least, I'm not sure.

Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Post 24

Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 11:32pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
This thread seems to have died. The last post was on September 5th. But having read through the various responses, I didn't see that anyone had actually defended the idea that fraud was a form of physical force. Some even disputed it on the grounds that although fraud may be a form of force, it was not a form of ~physical~ force, because it did not involve physically attacking or threatening to physically attack someone.

I'd like to argue that fraud is indeed a form of physical force, on the grounds that what is meant by physical force in this context is forcing someone to act against his will, which can be done either by attacking or threatening to attack him or his property or by gaining a (physical) value from him against his consent.

If such actions constitute physical force, then what is non-physical force? Well, one example would be a person who is forced to quite his job due to illness. He is not a victim of physical force, because he was not forced to act against will; his personal autonomy was not violated. Bad health forced him to terminate his employment. Another example would be if he were forced out of a job by being laid off. In this case as well, his personal autonomy was not violated; all that occurred is that his employment association was ended by the other party.

The idea behind the ban on the initiation of physical force is respect for a person's right to voluntary action. The term "physical force" is used, because it means the denial of voluntary action either through the initiation, or threat of the initiation, of violence or by the fraudulent disposition of someone's property against his will. If a person has a right to voluntary action, then he has a right to dispose of his property as he wishes; fraud violates that right.

Thus, the prohibition on the initiation of physical force is both a necessary and a sufficient condition for a violation of rights, provided that one understands what is meant by the term "physical force."

- Bill


Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Post 25

Friday, October 21, 2005 - 12:12amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Bill,

In fraud, value is taken by the swindler from the victim without informed consent - that is, without consent. When the swindler puts his hand on the proceeds of the fraud, he physically appropriates what rightfully still belongs to the victim - a form of theft, of physical force.

I don't see the supposed "problem."


Post 26

Friday, October 21, 2005 - 4:30pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Adam:

"In fraud, value is taken by the swindler from the victim without informed consent - that is, without consent."

Yes, and that depends on the terms of the contract or conditions of sale. The context, if you like. When you purchase a house it is generally sold as is unless otherwise specified. Caveat emptor applies fully. You have no comeback if the foundations are discovered to be rotten. That's up to you to discover as per the terms of sale.

Consent & the potential for fraud depends on representations made prior to the transaction.

Ross

Sanction: 3, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 3, No Sanction: 0
Post 27

Friday, October 21, 2005 - 8:46pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Michael,


I suggest that the reason they are addressed is that the actual topic is more difficult than you might guess.


The issue isn't arguing about who started it, the issue is who's going to stop taking advantage of their power and clean up the mess.

That's expecting too much. Whomever inherits the scorched earth will be a bit more sober and rational next time.

If a man stands three feet in front me waving his hands and shouting threats at me, how do I feel? Ah! But feelings are not tools of cognition and he is not responsible for my feelings.


Yes, in a gunfight, it's best to shoot first. And its best not to be too quick tempered, or you'll scare the neighbors, and they might shoot you first.

The problem is really two problems.
What does it mean to strike first?
When does that "strike" happen?


The history of war is the history of humanity. The question should be who's going to stop shooting, give back the plunder, and clean up the mess.

Scott

Post 28

Sunday, November 6, 2005 - 2:38pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
     "Initiation of Force" is any THREAT to cause a loss of  life, liberty (of live-and-let-live actions, which implies the inclusion of  loss-of-limbs),  pursuit-of-happiness (so well put by our country's Founders, though the last is redundant methinks) to an 'other', if the 'other' doesn't follow the directions of the "Initiator." --- This, of course, is an "Initiation of Force" to an other's MIND, the most basic, fundamental, necessary...'fountainhead'...of property, that gives any and all meaning to all other subjects considered/debated as 'property.'

     S'far as I can see, nothing could be simpler in 'analyzing' Rand's meaning of the phrase, nor it's applicability to our own, unique, Declaration of Independence.

LLAP
J:D

P.S: Other than practically-semantic arguments, re 'property' or 'rights', I really don't see any place for confusion...at least amongst supposed O'ist-oriented peoples.


Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 29

Monday, November 7, 2005 - 7:05amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
John D,

I have always had a problem with this equation, that threat is initiation of force. That seems to me like trying to force feed words into a single principle.

I prefer two principles to restrict. (1) Initiation of force, and (2) communication (verbal or otherwise) of intent to use force. That's a threat, right?

And even on the intent to use force, John Hospers brilliantly pointed out in an essay I read recently that the problem with NIOF is that the word "non-consensual" is left out.

Boxing, for instance, most certainly is the initiation of force, but it is consensual. Does the NIOF principle make it morally wrong? Nope.

I find a lot of package dealing going on with the NIOF argument that doesn't suit my way of looking at things and identifying them. Forcing communication into the concept of actual "force" is one of them.

(I know most all the standard arguments. Libertarians constantly proclaim them. I still think this kind of reasoning is "forced." Force is being initiated against a word.  //;-)

Michael

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 11/07, 7:07am)


Post 30

Monday, November 7, 2005 - 11:28amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I would consider at threat, at some point, to be a valid cause for pre-emptive action. (Where that line is to be drawn is tricky.)
I was taught growing up never to throw the first punch, but also to defend myself; not to start it but to finish it. The TRICKY part was determining what point to walk away or fight. If one walks away and is followed, would that be an grounds to begin defending oneself? Or must one wait til the "punch" is in mid-air? Does one have to wait before a missile is launched to strike back, or can special ops morally prevent the person from pulling the trigger? Why should the law be morally helpless to prevent a crime as opposed to reacting after the fact?
Tricky questions with lots of slippery slopes, yes. But then, why should a possibility of a slippery slope prevent one from preventing an attack?

Post 31

Monday, November 7, 2005 - 7:32pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
The threat to use force is either retaliatory--against another threat say--or the initiation of force. "If you don't give me your wallet I will beat you up" is clearly an initiation of force. Why this seemingly needless complexity? Did I miss something here?

--Brant


Post 32

Monday, November 7, 2005 - 7:37pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Boxing is NOT an initiation of force, neither is a football game or any other contact sport. It is not an initiation of force to fire up a rocket and go to the moon. "Non-consensual" is demonstrated by context.

--Brant


Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 33

Monday, November 7, 2005 - 8:15pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
There is really no need to add "non-consensual" to NIOF. Force in this context means non-consensual; it means compulsion, and compulsory is the opposite of voluntary. That's why both fraud and the threat of violence constitute force or compulsion; both violate the right to voluntary action - the right to freedom of choice.

- Bill

Post 34

Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 11:42amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
As I see it, "force" is the intentional, reckless, or negligent destruction of the values of another or the threat thereof.  Men acquire values by perceiving reality, attempting to understand it, and using this understanding to create their values.   This is their way of living.  Fraud is the intentional interference with this process and is, therefore, destructive.  Being intentional and destructive makes it "force."

Intentional fraud will eventually lead or tend to lead to physical destruction.  Rewiring a stop light at a traffic intersection to lead cars into crashes isn't the direct use of physical force against others.  The perpetrator never touches any of them, but he has interferred  with their perception of reality and killed or injured them anyway.  With a little thought, we can see that all fraud will have a similar effect, one way or another.

(Common law fraud is an intentional misrepresentation made with the knowledge that it is a misrepresentation and further made with the intention that the person it is being made to will rely on it to his detriment, with resulting injury, loss, or damage.)


Post 35

Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 6:05pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Mike K:

     Re your 'two principles', no problemo; I didn't mean to imply that 'threat' was the ONLY form of 'force' that could ever be used, but meant merely that 'PHYSICALLY-forcing' was not the ONLY form meant in the O'ist framework.

     Keep in mind, though, that Physically-forcing (such as physically manipulating someone's limbs/digits) IS using their body in a way to circumvent the person's mind-affect/effects, whereas the (more common extortion-form) Threat is a way to try to make use of it by directing it apart from its own inhered 'value'-system.

     Re the NIOF idea, as a political tenet, I have no prob; but, as a so-called 'principle', it's ridiculous of course. With no agreed upon ethical base, it's practically meaningless as a 'principle' in politics. At best, it's merely a tenet, a single belief...requiring justification; and, in a political 'system' of beliefs, a consensus of justification. The latter doesn't exist, so...

     I'll not argue Hosper's idea of 'non-consensual' being relevent or not, but the likes of martial-arts, boxing or any physical-competition requiring body-contact (can one say American foot-ball?) as an example just doesn't fly as relevent, hence 'morality' is not relevent to these in my view (NIOF or non).

     Re the 'package-dealing' within the use of this NIOF idea, no argument; but then, I never argued for the worth of NIOF in the first place.

LLAP
J:D

P.S: As to where 'fraud' falls relating to 'force', as long as one thinks in terms of the MIND being 'forced', it should be obvious. Creating a false perception to someone's MIND, thus attempting to circumvent its normally-expectable use, is forcing it to 'see', ergo act/decide, things differently (that is, according to one's own desire of how one wants it to 'see' things) than it normally would without the 'fraud'. --- I really don't see what the discombobulation is on that, especially if the technically non-physical 'threat' is accepted as a type of 'force.'

(Edited by John Dailey on 11/27, 6:17pm)

(Edited by John Dailey on 11/27, 7:22pm)


Post to this threadBack one pagePage 0Page 1


User ID Password or create a free account.