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Sunday, March 6, 2005 - 6:22pmSanction this postReply
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Can rights be violated in any way other than by the initiation of force?

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Sunday, March 6, 2005 - 9:21pmSanction this postReply
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I think this is a good question.

One important thing to do here is to carefully define the word "force".  I get the impression that Objectivists don't always define the word "force" so carefully.

Does "force" mean "physical violence or the threat of physical violence"?  That's what I always thought force was supposed to mean.

Perhaps "force" means "physical violence, or the threat of physical violence, or taking somebody's property without their consent, or harming somebody's property without their consent."  Maybe that's what "force" means to Objectivists.  If that's what objectivists mean by "force", I think that's kind of a non-standard usage of the term, and I think they should be very careful to clarify that this is what they really mean.  According to this approach, the idea of "property" is more fundamental than the idea of "force", and it would be important to carefully explain what you mean by "property".

When Ayn Rand states that fraud is an "indirect" form of force, it sounds to me like she's taking "force" to mean "physical violence or the threat of physical violence."  I always thought this statement that fraud was an "indirect" form of force was kind of vague and bogus; either fraud is a kind of force, or it is not.

John Galt says:
"Whatever may be open to disagreement, there is one act of evil that may not, the act that no man may commit against others and no man may sanction or forgive. So long as men desire to live together, no man may initate–do you hear me? no man may start–the use of physical force against others"

Here he clearly states that he is referring to "physical force".  I think this statement by John Galt is incorrect, even according to Objectivism.  If someone commits fraud, he may have initiated the use of "force" (depending on what "force" means); but he has certainly not initiated the use of "physical force."  According to Objectivism, the government should initiate the use of physical force against someone who commits fraud.

It has always bothered me that this key statement by Galt is not correct.  This point is too important to be sloppy about it.  You may think I'm being picky, but this point is too important to be sloppy about it at such a crucial point in Atlas Shrugged. The fact that this key statement is actually incorrect--even according to Objectivism--makes me think there's some genuine confusion about this issue.


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Monday, March 7, 2005 - 7:26amSanction this postReply
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You could enslave thousands of people for successive generations by keeping them ignorant.  The use of force would be minimal.  In fact, I think that this is actually how the world got to be the way it is. 

Fraud is a difficult problem.  The only solution I see for it is to start from the fact that morality is personal.  I do not mean that morality is subjective, but that it starts with you.  For an example, consider the episode in The Fountainhead where the swindlers hired Roark because they considered him the worst they could find.  Aside from the financial problems with the development, was their plan fraudulent?  They intended it to be.  Therefore, it was.  Conversely, there have been a couple of occasions, when, buying an ancient Greek coin via the mails, I have written back to the dealer, making sure that he knew that the coin he sent me was better (higher grade; uncommon variety) than what he advertised. 

Ancient numismatics and numismatics in general is a marketplace where dealers are wrongfully assumed to be experts.  The buyer, the collector, is often the true expert and the dealer is forced to be a generalist.  Therefore, the seller is at a disadvantage, something that discussions of "fraud" often fail to take into account.

So, it is not clear to me what constitutes fraud. 

An obvious case would be failure to deliver.  Pure and simple, you keep the money and do not hand over the goods or perform the services.  In that case, fraud is the same as theft.  We might call it "looting by stealth."


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Monday, March 7, 2005 - 7:38amSanction this postReply
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On the premise that morality is personal, I wonder what constitutes force.

I believe that we are wrong to assume that everyone is created equal.  Different people obviously have different abilities.  In medieval Iceland, during its heroic age, all men were assumed to be equal at combat.  So, open combat was sanctioned.  To us today, that would be clearly a case of the strong oppressing the weak as size matters when your weapons are swords and axes.  Therefore, in America, we have said that men were not born equal but that Col. Colt made them equal.  The handgun is the great equalizer.  A woman or a child could take down the largest man, to say nothing of the marginally smaller man.

I believe that a similar range of differences applies mentally. 

Education is the great equalizer.  Those of use who are less clever can read and memorize the ideas of other people and expand our understanding, so as not to be bullied by those who are clever, witty, and malevolent.

I believe that there exist  variables in mental power, analogous, to speed, strength, agility, and endurance in physical power.

Therefore, so called "high pressure salesmen" are aggressors who prey on the weak.

The question is not whether making an empassioned and motivating appeal is right or wrong, but what your intent is in making such an appeal.

The problem then becomes one of proving intent. 


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