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Sunday, March 6, 2005 - 6:33pmSanction this postReply
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Ron Merril writes:

If sustaining the "life of man qua man" may, under certain circumstances, require one to seek death then "life MQM" must be a rather peculiar type of life.

This is made plain by the discussion between Mr. Thompson and John Galt. Thompson asks, "Don't you want to live?" Galt answers, "I do want to live. I want it so passionately that I will accept no substitute."

Hence it becomes plain that, in fact, biological survival is not what is meant by "life." This is damaging because it is perfectly possible to achieve other values than Rands idea of what the "life of man qua man" is, without giving up mere biological survival. Given this fact, her solution to the naturalistic fallacy fails.

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Post 1

Sunday, March 6, 2005 - 7:42pmSanction this postReply
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If sustaining the "life of man qua man" may, under certain circumstances, require one to seek death then "life MQM" must be a rather peculiar type of life.
Specific, yes.  Peculiar, no.
Hence it becomes plain that, in fact, biological survival is not what is meant by "life."
It isn't-- not just biological survival.
This is damaging because it is perfectly possible to achieve other values than Rands idea of what the "life of man qua man" is, without giving up mere biological survival.
Which other values are you talking about?  Can you give us some examples?  What is this damaging to, and how?
Given this fact, her solution to the naturalistic fallacy fails.
What is the naturalistic fallacy?  I wasn't aware Rand was trying to solve any "naturalistic fallacy" problem.


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Sunday, March 6, 2005 - 9:41pmSanction this postReply
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I think this is an important point.

It seems to me that "life" and "survival" are very vague terms in Objectivism.  I believe that most Objectivists don't take "survival" to mean literal biological, physiological survival.  But then what does "survival" mean?  This is such an important point; yet, after having been interested in Objectivism for years, and having read all of Ayn Rand's books, I still don't really know what Objectivists mean by "survival".

Objectivists always start saying that "life" means "the kind of life appropriate to man", or something like that.  But I think that is so vague and I really don't know what it means.  There's a good chance Objectivists will start using the word "qua" here, which won't help the situation.

"Life" is supposed to be the standard of value that guides all our moral decisions--and yet, I don't even know what Objectivists mean by "life".  Sometimes it sounds like they mean literal, physiological survival.  Often they seem to mean something else, and it's really not clear what they mean.  How could there be such vagueness and confusion about such a critical and basic part of Objectivism?  I think there's a serious problem here.


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Monday, March 7, 2005 - 3:25amSanction this postReply
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Daniel O'Connor wrote:
"Life" is supposed to be the standard of value that guides all our moral decisions--and yet, I don't even know what Objectivists mean by "life".  Sometimes it sounds like they mean literal, physiological survival.  Often they seem to mean something else, and it's really not clear what they mean.  How could there be such vagueness and confusion about such a critical and basic part of Objectivism?  I think there's a serious problem here.

Speaking as a new student of Objectivism myself, I would agree there is an important point here, but maybe not so much a serious problem as it might be just a confusion of wording.  As far as my understanding, the term 'survival' is used pretty consistently, indeed meaning literal biological, physiological survival; the fundamental choice between existence and non-existence as well as the actions necessary to carry out that choice (food, water, air, shelter etc.).  I recall survival being used figuratively in some social contexts also, but if you can show me where Objectivists do not use the word in these ways I'd love to take a look.

'Life', I agree, is used more liberally in a sense.  Rand describes life as "a process of self-sustaining, and self-generated action."  This definition is used for all living entities and serves to bridge the facts of reality with the values and purposes of morality.  Life is established as the standard of value, and actions taken to sustain and further life therefore are moral.  I took some logical jumps there but it's pretty cut-and-dry.

Thanks to our penchant for volition, mankind then gets it's own version of life, i.e. life qua man and "the kind of life appropriate to man."  Then we get into discussions on egoism and self-esteem and social scenarios, and now 'life' entails moral perfection and actualization and happiness; living consciously and utilizing resources and ability... no longer mere survival.

The idea I think we're missing here is that all of these 'higher' concepts of life are derivations of that one fundamental view of life as the ultimate value.  If we apply this morality to our daily routine, and choose consistently to act in a 'life'-promoting manner, then we should achieve the 'higher' life that is consonant with the requirements of life-as-survival.  Barring any disasters, being good is logically good for you.

I apologize if I put words in your mouth, I was speaking more for myself.  If you see fallacies in my roundabout reasoning, it would help me grow if you can point them out. 

Maybe we should create a code... use a capital L for that certain state of life pertaining to moral consistency and genuine happiness.  Strive to achieve Life, and Life will be good.  :)


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Monday, March 7, 2005 - 3:55amSanction this postReply
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Try reading Tara Smith's VIABLE VALUES..... it covers this subject in good detail....

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Monday, March 7, 2005 - 5:52amSanction this postReply
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What about the possibility of suicide posed by Galt's response to Mr. Thompson? If life is the highest value, how can suicide even be a consideration?

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Monday, March 7, 2005 - 8:59amSanction this postReply
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What about the possibility of suicide posed by Galt's response to Mr. Thompson? If life is the highest value, how can suicide even be a consideration?
What if you were made to work at the point of a gun to betray all of the values you held, living under a dictatorship from which there was no escape and in which you could achieve no values and derive no happiness?

However rare such situations may be, can you think of no situation in which you would prefer death over an agonizing or unbearable life?

Remember that while life is the standard of value in ethics, happiness is the purpose or goal of ethics.  If no happiness is possible, there is little reason to attempt to gain values, i.e., to live.

No, Rand doesn't just mean biological survival when she talks about life-- she means a life such as a human's life should be, a life worth living.  Galt has so much integrity that he'd rather take his own life than see any of his values compromised, especially Dagny.


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