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Post 20

Monday, August 15, 2005 - 6:55amSanction this postReply
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Hi Sarah

I think this discussion should drop 'human' as the focus of the ethical basis.  Instead, 'person' would be more accurate and reasonable.  A 'person' might not necessarily need to be a human.  Human is a biological definition (genotype, general charachteristic descriptions, etc)  while a person on the other hand is a being of volitional consciousness, something that is aware of itself and sentient beyond the mere perceptual level.  A human as a definition is a thing, a person as a definition is a process.  A human can be a person, but some humans should not be considered person, like severely retarded, those lacking the physiological brain mechanisms that are required for self-awareness, early fetuses, etc. 

It's not a good idea to draw a strict biological line because that line is going to get ever blurrier.  What about a sentient computer?  It is a person, but not a 'human' does it have the same rights we would normally consider humans to posses?   What about when humans start getting nueral implants, and more than 50% of thier reasoning occurs non-biologically?  Dolphins, chimpanzees, and some parrots are very close to humans in their brain to body weight ratio and can readily communicate with humans.  Many chimpanzees are aware of themselves (when placed in front of a mirror they immediately start examing parts of their bodies they can not normally see)

However, it is generally safe enough to consider humans = persons, because the overwhelming majority are persons [well, some might argue that point ;) ] and the fringes are where we get into legal / ethical issues, e.g. when is a fetus a person?, how brain dead must someone be for it not to be considered murder to remove them from life support (Terry Schiavo, for instance) 

I have no problem being a 'speciest' but only because that is a convenient conceptual shorthand for the more accurate  'personist', and it will need to be more clearly defined in the future.

Michael F Dickey


Post 21

Monday, August 15, 2005 - 9:46amSanction this postReply
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Marcus,
Therefore, an irrational baby is not human?
In my view, whether a baby is human doesn't depend on whether it's rational, as I reject "rational animal" as a valid definition for "human."

Mike Erickson,
As a practical matter, the actions that we take that are not constrained by the rule of law ARE a matter of taste.
Not according to Objectivism. The law doesn't codify every moral act, nor prohibit every immoral act. Some instances of lying, cheating, and nonphysically harming others (like when you hurt their feelings) are considered ethical shortcomings, not mere matters of taste, even though they fall beyond the bounds of law. 

Also, if retribution weren't an issue, would you be cooling with eating a person? Put another way, if you knew you could successfully eat a brain-dead person without people knowing that you did it, would it be okay to do so?

Sarah,
Assuming a system of ethics is based on the rationality and volition of its adherents, how do you justify the inclusion of beings that have neither of the above attributes in having rights, especially the right to life.
I wonder if you're confusing moral agents with moral patients. The beings who adhere to moral principles aren't necessarily the exact same beings subject to those moral principles. Also, if you're convinced that only rational and volition individuals deserve moral consideration, then there should be no problem (all other things being equal) in munching on nonvolitional or nonrational members of the human species. The relevant question is why in the first place should we morally consider only beings with rationality and volition?

Jordan


Post 22

Monday, August 15, 2005 - 12:25pmSanction this postReply
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Michael,

I tried to clarify myself on that issue in post 16.

Jordan,

Another form of my question is: if "munching on nonvolitional or nonrational members of the human species" revolts you, why?  Does anyone here have a rational justification for abstaining from cannibalism?

May I request someone take the following online quiz about taboos and share the results? http://www.philosophersnet.com/games/taboo.htm

Sarah


Post 23

Monday, August 15, 2005 - 12:54pmSanction this postReply
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Jordon,

I used fear of retribution as a reply to Sarah about there being no rational reason for humans to not eat brain dead humans. There is also the question of where to draw the line. If eating some humans is ok then we are all much closer to the dinner table. "First they came for grandma, then uncle harry, then sister sue......" I would not in any case eat another human being. There are many animals that I would not kill and eat as well. I would never eat a cat for example because I love cats. Pigs are probably smarter that cats but I have no such compunction against eating pigs. I've never loved a pig.

I have never read anything in objectivist literature that argues that it is immoral to kill and eat animals. Objectivism regards the self as the highest value and personal flourishing as our legitimate purpose. If we require meat in our diet for optimum health then I'm sorry some animals are going to die. I don't advocate making them suffer.

I really shouldn't have gotten in to this discussion in the first place because I think it's a little silly.

Post 24

Monday, August 15, 2005 - 1:10pmSanction this postReply
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Mike,

Fear of retribution isn't a legitimate or rational reason to refrain from an action.  Was fear of punishment a legitimate and rational reason to condone slavery in the early US south?

I'm just asking for a more substantial reason than "just 'cause I don't wanna."  I'm not here trying to promote ethical vegetarianism, I'm just looking for more than rationalizations.

Sarah


Post 25

Monday, August 15, 2005 - 1:20pmSanction this postReply
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Hey Sarah,

I took that online poll and showed up as totally permissive.

But I still wouldn't eat people. The thing about that test is that it involves nothing morally wrong, as long as you believe in liberty and the rights of consenting adults to do whatever they like as long as it doesn't violate the rights of others.

Ethan

P.S. The chicken fucker question was particularly funny. I bet it's happened too.

(Edited by Ethan Dawe on 8/15, 1:47pm)


Post 26

Monday, August 15, 2005 - 7:57pmSanction this postReply
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Sarah,

"Fear of retribution isn't a legitimate or rational reason to refrain from an action."

Wrong.

"Was fear of punishment a legitimate and rational reason to condone slavery in the early US south?"

People don't have to "condone" something to refrain from acting against it.

"I'm just asking for a more substantial reason than "just 'cause I don't wanna." I'm not here trying to promote ethical vegetarianism, I'm just looking for more than rationalizations."

I gave substantial reasons. Just not what you're looking for evidently. Why don't you offer a counter argument? Explain exactly why "fear of retribution" is not a legitimate reason to refrain from action. If you can do it while I still can retain my life as my highest value.

Edited to add: I took the poll, I'm fully permissive with a "Universalising" factor of -1.
(Edited by Mike Erickson
on 8/15, 8:09pm)


Post 27

Monday, August 15, 2005 - 10:04pmSanction this postReply
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I was fully permissive as well.

Ethan,

My point here is: what's morally wrong with eating a brain-dead grandma who's beyond hope regardless of technological abilities?  I use this as an extreme example of granting rights to those who are, beyond reasonable potential (which is redefined as technology changes), nonrational and nonvolitional such as the comatose and/or catatonic.  Am I advocating the lack of rights of the mentally retarded or senile grandma?  No, but I don't have a good reason for my position.  I'm trying to find someone who does.

Mike,

Well, I'm not sure that I have the burden of proof here, but I'll give it a go anyway.

Your fear-of-retribution argument seems to be taking self-preservation as the highest value.  This is why I brought up slavery in the early south.  If "life as highest value" means self-preservation, then your actions are dictated by others' ability to initiate force against you.  Thus, the answer to "How ought I act?" becomes "In agreement with the strongest group so I don't get hurt."  You sacrifice objective morality; that is why I think fear of retribution is not a legitimate basis for deciding how to act.

Sarah


Post 28

Monday, August 15, 2005 - 11:09pmSanction this postReply
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Sarah,

What is the objective of your morality?

Mike E.

Post 29

Monday, August 15, 2005 - 11:30pmSanction this postReply
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Mike,

To determine how I should act.  Did you mean something else by that question?  A different definition of objective perhaps?  I only ask because that's a pretty standard question.  The answer is the same regardless of the system of ethics.

Sarah


Post 30

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 12:12amSanction this postReply
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Sarah,

What is the end result of your actions? What is the purpose of your morality? Different systems of ethics have different goals, for instance, "obey God's commandments", "further the well being of the human race", "ensure a safe future for mankind", et c. In some systems any self centered action cannot by definition be moral because it is "self" centered. Objectivist's place a high value on their own lives. I think that is an essential part of human nature, the will to survive. And it explains quite a lot. What I like about Objectivism is reclaiming the morality of self centered actions. Purposeful, self-centered, mind your own business, make your own life your own personal work of art, living a life.

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Post 31

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 5:11amSanction this postReply
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Jordan

--------------
The relevant question is why in the first place should we morally consider only beings with rationality and volition?
--------------

Because volition is the foundation of morality.

Despite common initial revulsion (a left-over from evolution), if you can stomach it, it's okay to eat your grandma -- but only if you're starving, and she's irreversibly brain-dead.

The psycho-epistemological difficulty of integrating the consumption of grandmothers (within a morality that is based on your life as the standard) is not to be underestimated. Many may not be able to do this and, for them, it may be preferable to die (as grandma consumption -- for them -- could only bring a contradictory happiness).

Ed

Post 32

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 7:52amSanction this postReply
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Ed,
--------------
The relevant question is why in the first place should we morally consider only beings with rationality and volition?
--------------

Because volition is the foundation of morality.

No doubt without volition I wouldn't have ethics; I would not be a moral agent. But that doesn't address the question.  The question, reworded, is: Should all moral patients also be moral agents? Or: Should all moral patients possess rationality and volition? Moral agents and moral patients are not necessarily the same.

Mike,

Again, if a guy rationally didn't have fear of retribution - that is, if he knew he could get away with it - would you be cool with him munching on brain-dead grandma?

Sarah,

Other things being equal, there's nothing necessarily morally wrong with eating brain-dead humans. They might have a living will that you might want to honor, or they might have a surrogate decisionmaker whose decisions who might want to respect, as surrogate decision makers and living wills could be construed as encompassing rights. In my view (ignoring esthetics and health), eating a brain dead person is the same as eating a dead person is the same as eating a vegetable.

Jordan

(Edited by Jordan on 8/16, 7:52am)


Post 33

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 8:30amSanction this postReply
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Jordan,

I've already answered that. You make me tired.

Post 34

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 10:30amSanction this postReply
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Mike,

Without a rigorous treatment, I'd say the end result of moral actions is to protect one's individual happiness from being violated by another's initiation of force, i.e. the rational pursuit of happiness.  Under this system one needs to be alive to be moral, of course, but it also includes the quality of life.  I see this basic right as including the others (life and liberty) because without them one cannot rationally pursue one's own happiness.  I include only sentient and sapient beings under this morality because I define happiness as something more substantial than carnal pleasure satisfaction.  A nonsapient being could not achieve happiness in this sense and a nonsentient being could experience neither happiness nor carnal pleasure.

The first point one could raise against this would be the conflicts of interest; what makes one person happy may interfere with what makes another happy.  Each person is responsible for his own happiness and the only obligation is a negative one: do not interfere through initiation of force with others' rational pursuit of happiness. 

The second point that comes to mind is the mistaken idea that to protect one's happiness is to ensure it, i.e. moral obligations to ensure others' happiness.  Perhaps person A's pursuit of happiness leads him to start a business.  Does person B then have a moral obligation to purchase A's goods or services so that A will be happy?  No.  For B to refrain from doing so would not be an initiation of force so while it does not provide for A's happiness, it also does not interfere with it.  Instead, A is responsible for his own happiness and must therefore provide goods or services that B wants/needs if A wants to pursue his own happiness.

Going back to the slavery example, would inaction be justifiable under my system?  Not if you were a slave.  Of course, there are more actions than outright rebellion, which would likely lead to death.  Subterfuge is always an option.  The other possibility is you being a slave owner.  Are you actions justifiable?  No, not in any way.  They are a direct interference with the slave's rational pursuit of happiness.  Beyond that, it depends on whether you can live with the violation of another's rational pursuit of happiness.  There would be no moral obligation to help free slaves, but there could always be the desire to do so.

There is a point that Ed brings up: "grandma consumption -- for them -- could only bring a contradictory happiness."  Suppose person A has the desire to not eat incurably mentally retarded person C who is a nonsapient being.  Person B has a reservation at Hannibal's, the new place down the street that offers fresh people meat gathered from people such as C, and wants very much to try C-meat (a carnal pleasure at best).  Since C is nonsapient and A and B can claim only desires and not rational pursuit of happiness, what is the moral course of action here?  The likely course of action would be to prevent B from eating C, but it would, in my mind, be an emotion-based decision.  Is my only recourse here to resign that such a decision is the only outcome under my system?  Or perhaps an ad hoc rationalization such as the (unreasonable) potentiality argument? 

Ed,

Would you extend those ideas to the irreversibly brain-damaged/mentally retarded?  In other words, beings with only sentience.  Why or why not?

Jordan,

Yes, living wills would simplify the situation greatly, but for sake of argument we'll assume that's not the case.  Should a nonsapient human be treated as property then (if they have someone willing to claim them as such)?

Sarah


Post 35

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 11:11amSanction this postReply
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Mike,
 
I don't see that you've answered, only reiterated your view w/r/t fear of retaliation. I don't want to make you tired, so don't bother answering.

Sarah,
Yes, living wills would simplify the situation greatly, but for sake of argument we'll assume that's not the case.  Should a nonsapient human be treated as property then (if they have someone willing to claim them as such)?

Our views are probably too disparate for our exchange to be productive here. In my view, non-sentience (as opposed to non-sapience) is necessary for something to qualify as property. Rocks can be property; dead people can be property. If a thing doesn't care about or benefit from being non-property, then why should I care about or bother treating it as non-property?

Jordan


Post 36

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 12:04pmSanction this postReply
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Jordan,

While I don't think disparity of views is a hindrance to a productive discussion, I won't try to keep you talking if you don't want to.  However, I do have some final questions for you: ever have any pets (dogs, cats, fish, etc)?  Did you consider them property?  Such pets may "care about" or have an aversion to being mistreated, but I doubt they could care about being considered property.  How is your care criterion not based in sapience?

Sarah

(Edited by Sarah House on 8/16, 12:06pm)


Post 37

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 2:14pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Sarah,
ever have any pets (dogs, cats, fish, etc)?  Did you consider them property?  Such pets may "care about" or have an aversion to being mistreated, but I doubt they could care about being considered property.  How is your care criterion not based in sapience?
I have pets, and I don't consider them property. According to Objectivism, we can do with property whatever we please (so long as we don't encroach on others' property). My pets would not necessarily be apathetic about me doing to them whatever I please. They would certainly care if I chose to punt them across the room. In that sense, they care whether they are property (which is, at least in part, something with which one can do what one pleases). Accordingly, I consider myself my pets' custodian, not their owner.

Jordan

(Edited by Jordan on 8/16, 2:15pm)


Post 38

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 7:28pmSanction this postReply
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Sarah,

I've read your post #34 carefully. I agree with all of your points in paragraphs 1 through 4. I run into a little trouble in paragraph five. I don't think I necessarily disagree, I just have to read it over a few times to understand what you're saying. [Yes, sadly, english is my first (and only) language]. When you say "The likely course of action would be to prevent B from eating C" do you mean YOU would prevent A and B from eating C? Or society or some average person?

I would personally not prevent A and B from eating C but I would not recommend that they do and I would never eat C myself.

Let me explain: First I do not share the disdain for emotion based decisions that you do. At least not with respect to my own life decisions or any decision regarding people. I think emotions to a large degree have rational roots. Our emotions are are a result of our life experience integrated over time and to a smaller extent the life experience of our parents and of all of the stories we are told growing up. Being that I believe that more often than not people behave rationally, I believe emotions are ultimately reason based. If you feel very strongly about something it becomes a quality of life issue. I would not eat a person because I would not enjoy life afterwards in the contemplation of it. That is my personal reason. My recommendation to others regards their personal safety. People tend to get very attached to their people, the taboo against cannibalism is very strong [I suspect, in the distant past, for rational reasons: fear of retribution?, instinctual?(meaning selected for), disease?] so I suspect if Hannibals place existed it would shortly be burned down by large crowds with torches and pitchforks.

As to if I'm ultimately capable of making a rational decision: I'm very much attached to my wife Karen. I love her. If I were faced with a situation where I would die if I didn't eat C, and Karen's survival depended on my survival, I might eat C. I would rationally choose to preserve a higher personal value. But I wouldn't give a nickle for the quality of my life afterwards if anything happened to Karen. And I'd probably have nightmares. I don't think C would mind, but I wouldn't tell anyone I did it.

And totally off the beaten path, I suppose a culture could exist where a person could donate their body to be eaten the way we can donate our organs after our death. A persons last act of self ownership, so to speak.

Post 39

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 9:00pmSanction this postReply
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Now THAT'S what I'd call a Wake!!!

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