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Post 20

Monday, September 5, 2005 - 8:09pmSanction this postReply
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Jody wrote:
No, you would be following objectivism is you provided for yourself without sacrificing someones else's life.
In objectivism, if I have read up correctly, the reason why in most contexts its wrong/bad to "sacrifice" an innocent person's life is because it will have a negative impact on your ability to survive. But in the grocery scenario above, and the US's current legal system, from the looter's perspective, killing the property owner has a positive impact on his ability to survive.

Post 21

Monday, September 5, 2005 - 8:17pmSanction this postReply
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Dean, I highly recommend you read Tara Smith's "Viable Values". Chapter 5, "Morality's Reward: Flourishing" explains what man's life qua man means in much more detail than I can get into here.

Perhaps this excerpt will help your thinking:

To understand why flourishing is the proper end of value and morality, we must appreciate two principal facts. First, "life" and "flourishing" are two perspectives on the same phenomenon; flourishing is a certain character of life rather than a separate objective. Second, a person needs to flourish; flourishing is not an optional frill but a necessity.

Post 22

Monday, September 5, 2005 - 8:22pmSanction this postReply
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Jody,

I agree, his starvation would be the result of his choices. I have no idea what you mean by "man qua man".
To say that an individuals failure is justification to mortgage anothers life is to deny life.
I make no such claim. If such a claim is a contradiction, it matters little to me, it is not my claim. I have never claimed that "might makes right".

What I am claiming is that objectivism holds that it is always moral from an individual's perspective that he do what is in his best interest to survive-- that in objectivism, an individual's survival is the basis of his morality.

Post 23

Monday, September 5, 2005 - 8:27pmSanction this postReply
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Dean-
Saying that one's inability to sustain themself justifies the killing of another completely negates mans ability to live his life qua man and leads to utter chaos.  It sanctions the 'right' of any thug to take your life because he has failed to provide for his own.  If you allow that man is responsible for his own life, then you must allow that he is responsible to fail in that endeavor and that it would be wrong for him to take anothers life.  You could not live your life under such a philosophy because it would be up for the taking by anyone to make a claim upon it.  The only way to value your own life is to face personal responsibility and accept it when you fail.  The possibility of failure is a metaphysical norm.


Post 24

Monday, September 5, 2005 - 9:04pmSanction this postReply
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Jody,

Saying that one's inability to sustain themself justifies the killing of another completely negates mans ability to live his life qua man and leads to utter chaos.
It justifies the killing of an innocent only from the looter's perspective (again, under the premise of the US legal system). From everyone else's perspective, it is an immoral act (because they loose a very productive individual to a looter-- their ability to survive would be reduced), and it would be in their best interest to prevent such a thing from happening.

You could not live your life under such a philosophy because it would be up for the taking by anyone to make a claim upon it.
No. Objectivism doesn't work like that-- because I don't hold up to the looter's morality. As an objectivist, I would only act in the best interest of my own survival-- which in general doesn't include forfeiting my property/life to looters.

Post 25

Tuesday, September 6, 2005 - 3:32amSanction this postReply
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Dean - small comment. You asked me a number of questions on two threads now. I will answer them shortly. I just want you to know that I saw them.

Michael


Post 26

Tuesday, September 6, 2005 - 5:28amSanction this postReply
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Dean,

Jody has done a fine job of explaining that the Objectivist standard of value is not just life but life lived as a moral being.  I think anything more I could say would be redundant, but you did begin this thread with our exchange in the anti-gouging thread, so I'll pipe in.

Let me do so by pointing out a key statement of yours that is in error ...
What I am claiming is that objectivism holds that it is always moral from an individual's perspective that he do what is in his best interest to survive-- that in objectivism, an individual's survival is the basis of his morality.
Your life and your survival are not the same though obviously related.  You have the right to your life, which means you have the right to take any action, except for the initiation of force, to sustain your life.  Therefore, if your survival depends upon initiating force against another person, you have no right to survive by that means.

But you still have your life, whatever is left of it, which no one can take from you.  You may not think a doomed life amounts to much, but you would be mistaken, because you can continue to live that life as a moral being rather than as an animal whose only drive is to survive.

Andy


Post 27

Tuesday, September 6, 2005 - 6:05amSanction this postReply
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You have the right to your life, which means you have the right to take any action, except for the initiation of force, to sustain your life.
Surely that is not an objectivist position. Otherwise, an objectivist wouldn't be able to eat meat, or kill cockroaches, or... life requires initiation of force. You just have to use reason to determine when initiating force is beneficial and when it is detrimental to your survival.

Isn't the morality you are speaking of actually from Libertarianism, not Objectivism?

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Post 28

Tuesday, September 6, 2005 - 8:16amSanction this postReply
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Dean wrote:
What I am claiming is that objectivism holds that it is always moral from an individual's perspective that he do what is in his best interest to survive-- that in objectivism, an individual's survival is the basis of his morality.
NO! That completely misunderstands Objectivism.

How would you square your statement with this from Galt's speech?

Man's life, as required by his nature, is not the life of a mindless brute, of a looting thug or a mooching mystic, but the life of a thinking being - not life by means of force or fraud, but life by means of achievement - not survival at any price, since there's only one price that pays for man's survival: reason.

Man's life qua man means man's life as a thinking being.

Post 29

Tuesday, September 6, 2005 - 8:18amSanction this postReply
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Dean, re your post #27: what you are missing is context. The prohibition on the initiation of force applies only against other men.

Post 30

Tuesday, September 6, 2005 - 9:06amSanction this postReply
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Dean,

I wrote: 
You have the right to your life, which means you have the right to take any action, except for the initiation of force, to sustain your life.
You responded:
Surely that is not an objectivist position. Otherwise, an objectivist wouldn't be able to eat meat, or kill cockroaches, or... life requires initiation of force. You just have to use reason to determine when initiating force is beneficial and when it is detrimental to your survival.
It is the foundation of Objectivist ethics.  The primary values derived from the standard of life (qua man) are self-interest, rationality, and independence.  These are the values that a man as a moral being embraces above all others, because only by keeping all three of these values does he sustain his life in harmony with others.  As I said before, Objectivism is not narcissism rationalized.  Objectivism is neither the creed of the lone wolf who knows no value in the society of others nor that of the cannibal for whom others are just a means to an end.

It is the value of independence that you lose when you initiate force against another person.  By force, Miss Rand meant something other than physical force.  Obviously, you initiate force against a door when you open it.  There is no injustice to the door, because it has no capacity for morality.  The same applies to animals.  Force, in the Randian sense, is an assault or a fraud against a moral being - a person.  When you initiate force against another person, you are using him and therefore dependent upon him.  You are no longer self-reliant in your survival.  You are a parasite.

That is the consequence of initiating force against another rather than adhering to the trader principle.  You live a life qua parasite instead of a life qua man.  You have failed the standard of life, because you have lost the value of independence, even if you have kept the other two primary values by rationalizing that it is in your self-interest to steal and kill to survive.

So that's the foundation of Objectivist morality:  The standard of life and the three-legged stool of values that supports it.

Andy


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