About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadPage 0Page 1Forward one pageLast Page


Sanction: 3, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 3, No Sanction: 0
Post 0

Monday, October 3, 2005 - 9:23pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I have never had trouble putting myself first in any situation or relationship EXCEPT in dealings with my cat. No matter how exhausted I am, I will always obediently follow him to his dish and open a can of Fancy Feast for him – whether he decides that dinnertime is at 3PM or 3AM. My justification, of course, is that his well being is my responsibility since I took it upon myself to care for him in the first place. But my question is: WHY did I do it? And a better question would be: Why don’t I mind that responsibility?

Here’s a still more puzzling issue: I’ve always felt the need to “save” animals. I dislike charity and I hate pity. So why do I feel an overwhelming urge to rescue or to protect animals that won’t bring me any kind of reward? I don’t like to help weak people – unless there is a possibility that I can teach them to be strong – why then, do I care about animals?

WWOD? (What Would Objectivists Do?)


Post 1

Monday, October 3, 2005 - 9:49pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
You value animals' lives, why?

Individuals can choose their own values. Some people have a hierarchy of values based on their own life: objectivism. Some base it on rules: religion. Some on servitude/power: socialism. Some lack: nihilsm. Some on whim: others.

Why? Because these are the values that these people's neurons choose. Neurons choose. The wind blows.

Using objectivist ethics to judge your value of animals:
Do you value animals' lives over human lives? Which humans? Would protecting those animals have a net positive or negative effect on your life?

Post 2

Monday, October 3, 2005 - 10:14pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
"Why? Because these are the values that these people's neurons choose. Neurons choose. The wind blows."

I hope you don't really mean that. We are fully capable of changing our feelings and thoughts thru the process of reasoning. Our neurons do no make those decisions for us.

"Would protecting those animals have a net positive or negative effect on your life?"

That is a good point. I am not sure. I like to have a funtionalist perspective, so I assume that my instincts do have a purpose. What I am trying to understand is what that purpose is. Why do we as humans have a tendency to care for animals?



Sanction: 1, No Sanction: 0
Post 3

Monday, October 3, 2005 - 11:20pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Tania,

There are many levels that can be addressed in what you wrote. As a former cat owner, I can say that I valued the company that Mr. Spooky afforded me. That is why I had a cat. Pets can provide comfort in many ways.

Your use of language in the latter part of your post alludes to a more psychological need, rather than philosophical. I gather that you value strength of character, and demand that of yourself. Were you a caretaker in your family? I also do not like to help weak people, but I do sometimes, and there is a reason. Is it a logical reason? Not necessarily. It is more of a 'I have so much to go around I can afford to lose some and not even notice' approach. And sometimes people can be surprising.

If you think there is more to your wanting to "save" pets, there probably is. Look at this and you may find the answer.

Parental instinct may have a part to play in humans desire to care for animals. It could also be therapeutic for some; being able to correct past wrongs. For others, there may even be no desire at all to care for animals.

I personally find pure joy and delight having animals around me. Not so much house pets, but just in general.
(Edited by Donald Talton
on 10/03, 11:21pm)


Post 4

Monday, October 3, 2005 - 11:36pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
"Our neurons do no make those decisions for us."

Neurons are the part of our bodies that have the functionality of reasoning and decision making. Yes, we are capable of changing our feeling and thoughts, through reasoning. It is us, specifically our neurons, which do this.

Or is it your heart which does your thinking? Your soul? Of course not. There is no reason to think souls exist. The heart only reacts to electrical impulses to rhythmically pump blood.

It is our neurons that make decisions etc. Evidence: When a person's neurons stop working, they stop thinking. When a person's neurons begin working, they begin thinking. When some types of neurons stop working... start working... A rat's neuron's in a petri dish can control a flight simulator.

What probably bothered you was my notion of determinism.

Determinism
I don't know if things are determined to happen per-say. I think it would be impossible to deductively prove that everything is determined to happen-- because it would be impossible to know a complete state of all of reality, and impossible to then compute the next state and compare it with reality. Hence it is impossible to perfectly predict the future. Hmmm... it seems to me that our science provides deterministic equations for most everything. You may point to quantum physics, but I bet there is more determinism to discover. I could be wrong, its just my gut feeling. I have no reason to think everything is not determined.

Whether determined or not, our thinking/reasoning/feeling must be consistent with the rules/ways that reality works. We are not absolutely free to think or do whatever we want, we are limited by what is real. "Whatever we want" Haha, as if we could possibly think in a way that was not real, or do in a way that was not real.

I don't think that "free will" is inconsistent with determinism. I think many people have a bad conception of what "free will" actually is. We are "free" to do whatever we "want". Our wants are determined, or not, but they happen in a way that is consistent with the way reality works. By what means would things happen other than randomness or determinism?

What is to "choose"? To choose is to act upon one thing, rather than another. Whether the other could have actually happened or not in reality given that initial state-- is unknown to me. I can't think of a way to test to see whether the other could have actually happened.

Good night, Miss Dudina.

Post 5

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 - 12:46amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Tania, enjoy your pets.

Post 6

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 - 4:03amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

 I do not have a pet cat and macaw.  They have a pet human. ;o)

If Marcus says, "Wanna come up!", I put him on my shoulder.  If he says, "Hungry", I feed him.  If he says, "Kiss kiss", I kiss his head, et cetera.

If Cat meows loudly, I check her food and water dishes.  If she jumps up on my lap, I scratch her tummy.  If she starts chasin' me as I'm walking, I play with her, and so on...

Did I say they had a human pet?  More like a human servant! ;o)

But in all seriousness, am I putting their lives above my own?  I don't think so.  I happen to love caring for them, and as a pet owner, I've taken on the responsibility for their care.  Their companionship makes me happy, so it's in my own best interests to see that they're happy and healthy.

For me, the issue requires no more thought or analysis than that.

SmS

(Edited by Summer Serravillo on 10/04, 5:00am)


Post 7

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 - 4:24amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Tania:
"I have never had trouble putting myself first in any situation or relationship EXCEPT in dealings with my cat.
...
But my question is: WHY did I do it? And a better question would be: Why don’t I mind that responsibility?"

Rand addresses that altruistic dilemma in Virtue of Selfishness. A sacrifice is losing a greater value to a lesser. You, for emotional reasons, are achieving a greater value loving your cat than what you'd otherwise enjoy with your time and money.

"why do I feel an overwhelming urge to rescue or to protect animals that won’t bring me any kind of reward? I don’t like to help weak people – unless there is a possibility that I can teach them to be strong – why then, do I care about animals?"

Perhaps your cat is your ID-projection. That is, by loving a pet, you are vicariously giving yourself love. Try asking in the psych forum.

"WWOD? (What Would Objectivists Do?)"

An Objectivist wouldn't ask, it implies your wondering what is "normal" :-D

Scott

Post 8

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 - 6:36amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
"WWOD" More like WWAPODIAPC.

Post 9

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 - 9:18amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
> No matter how exhausted I am, I will always obediently follow him to his dish and open a can of Fancy Feast for him – whether he decides that dinnertime is at 3PM or 3AM. ... Why don’t I mind that responsibility? [Tania]

We nurture, look after, foster our values. We seek to have them flourish and we enjoy experiencing that and being around it. Living things are values (houseplants, pets, children).

*Not* having a pet (or equivalent living value as opposed to only a dead piece of marble sculpture) is against Objectivist rules.

:-)

Philip Coates

I miss my cat.

Post 10

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 - 9:44amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Same here, Phill - they not allow pets where I presently live... and cannot easily move at this time...

Sanction: 3, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 3, No Sanction: 0
Post 11

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 - 9:37amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Donald,

I like your response.

You write: “I also do not like to help weak people, but I do sometimes, and there is a reason. Is it a logical reason? Not necessarily. It is more of a 'I have so much to go around I can afford to lose some and not even notice' approach. And sometimes people can be surprising.”

It’s funny that you say that there is not always a logical reason, but then you go on to demonstrate the logic in your reasoning. I don’t think any reasons can be illogical, whether we realize the logic consciously or not. That logic can be flawed yes, but it is still present. That is what I am trying to figure out – the logic behind the actions of animal lovers.

You say: “Parental instinct may have a part to play in humans desire to care for animals.”

Hmm maybe… But that doesn’t seem quite right either.

Dean,

We do not seem to be communicating very well. You are arguing against points that I did not make.

You write: “Yes, we are capable of changing our feeling and thoughts, through reasoning. It is us, specifically our neurons, which do this.”

Uh-huh. I was not implying that we do not choose with our minds. I was responding to your comment: “Because these are the values that these people's neurons choose. Neurons choose. The wind blows.”

This seemed to say that we (yes, our neurons), have no say in what those neurons are up to. Further, I never said that we can choose “whatever we want” outside the realm of reality.

Lance,

Hi. Thanks. You too.

Summer,

Thanks for the reply. I also feel like a human pet at times.
I am not complaining. I simply like to understand the core of every issue.

Scott,
You write: “Perhaps your cat is your ID-projection. That is, by loving a pet, you are vicariously giving yourself love. Try asking in the psych forum.”

Interesting point, but no, in my case, my cat is not my “ID-projection.”
When I want to feed/protect other animals it is not because I love them, and it is not because I do not love myself enough.

Try asking a psych forum, you say? Okay. Thanks. But you see, I am not trying to understand only my own instincts, I am trying to crack the nature/functional purpose of that instinct in general. That is why this is, in many ways, a philosophical issue.

You write: “An Objectivist wouldn't ask, it implies your wondering what is "normal"”

What a terrible thing to say! Tsk tsk.
First of all, why wouldn’t an Objectivist wonder what is normal? I don’t think I’ve ever asked myself that question, but I don’t see what’s wrong with it.
Second of all, I am not attempting to decide whether my actions are normal. I am perfectly comfy with my actions. I am interested in determining WHY they are normal.

Besides, if an Objectivist should ask, why has an Objectivist taken the time to answer?

Dean,

I can’t crack that code. What does it mean? It looks clever.

Tania


Post 12

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 - 9:46amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Mr. Coates,

I think that's it! Thank you for that answer.
As people who value our lives, we instinctively value Life in general. All existence is in a way holly for those who love their own existence.

Donald, when you said that "sometimes people can be surprising," did you mean that sometimes they are worth the effort? That's true. I am never unwilling to help someone who can truly take advantage of the help and earn it with his own values or virtues.

Perhaps we want to help animals because they process the purest will to live.
Opinions?

Mr. Coates, I'm very sorry to hear about you cat.

Tania




Post 13

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 - 10:09amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Tania,

Yes, that is what I meant. I've been surprised by people before, and will be again.

To continue your idea of the purest will to live; what about envy for not having a care in the world? Food, sex, shelter. Beyond that, not much required. I can't imagine a lion sitting around reasoning for the pure joy of it.

Post 14

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 - 10:12amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Yes - and that is precisely the point of intelligence, of reasoning powers - it is a practicality, and not an extranious... if no necessity for its existance as a furtherance of human survival, it would not have existed...

Post 15

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 - 10:16amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Donald,

Is your question, do we envy an animal's ability to have no cares?

I don't.
You write: "I can't imagine a lion sitting around reasoning for the pure joy of it."

But a lion can never feel pure joy. Not in the way we (humans) do. I like having my basic needs met just as much as the next mammal, but by having deeper needs, I can experience far more satisfaction than can an animal. It takes more work to achieve human happiness, but isn't it worth the effort?

Tania

Post 16

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 - 10:21amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
This is all very interesting. I adore my pets, but they don't boss me around. They get dinner when I am ready to give it to them and if they start whining beforehand they are told to go to bed... and they do. They know the rules of living in my house and they follow them. I like to think it is rewarding for both of us: they are extremely well-behaved animals (which is a joy to me) and I provide a very nice life for them in return.

That said, maybe my puppy ran away from home because things were too strict, just like teenagers threaten (just kidding).


Post 17

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 - 10:36amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Tania,

I meant envy in a more fanciful way than that of actual desire. Should have defined my terms ;)

True happiness is always worth the effort.

Post 18

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 - 11:45amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Don't worry about it, Tania. Sciabarra's book, Ayn Rand, the Russian Radical has a photo of Rand with a cat in her lap. Given that Ayn Rand had a kitty, and never said anything pro or con pet ownership, I doubt anybody's going to denounce you loving your little furball.
(Edited by Matthew Graybosch
on 10/04, 11:46am)


Post 19

Tuesday, October 4, 2005 - 12:33pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
The thought of anyone denouncing or approving of anyone else's pet decisions based on Rand's liking of pets is stupid. I hope you are just being light-hearted Matthew.

Post to this threadPage 0Page 1Forward one pageLast Page


User ID Password or create a free account.