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Thursday, November 3, 2005 - 11:45amSanction this postReply
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I thought of putting this in the dissent forum, but I realized that I still don’t know nearly enough about Objectivism to honestly dissent; furthermore, I think my burgeoning dissent may be from a style of Objectivism practiced by some posters on this board and not Objectivism per se.  My essential question is this:  how is anyone to avoid the logical fallacy of Argumentum Ad Hominem in the heavily charged atmosphere of obligatory moral judgment demanded by Objectivism? 

 

Ayn Rand says, “Judge, and be prepared to be judged.”  I don’t get the impression from this, nor from its application by SOLOists, that what we’re to judge is someone’s argument—we’re asked to judge the person whole.  Standards of social discourse from other settings—granting one’s opponent the benefit of the doubt, the attempt to see things from your opponent’s point of view, standing back and taking a good long look before passing judgment, maintaining basic civility—are regularly tossed out the window in favor of snap judgments, prejudice, convenient straw men, and vicious invective (yes, yes, the internet at large is full of these abuses but the internet at large is a pornographic cesspool—SOLOHQ, even with the nastiness, is a well moderated site where standard internet trolling is minimal).

 

Objectivism is a “tool for life.”  It’s not an ivory tower diversion, but the nuts and bolts of an authentic encounter with reality.  It troubles me that Objectivism defines itself as the only way to meaningfully encounter reality at all; that’s a lot of weight for the psyches of its adherents to carry.  I tend to believe that this kind of thinking ultimately leads to judging a person’s philosophy by their conduct, something well outside typical philosophic discourse.

 

Like a lot of people around here, I’ve been profoundly perplexed by SOLOists’ obsession with the real life foibles of Objectivism’s founder.  I’ve never given a second thought to Aristotle’s sex life, and though I know J. P. Sartre had a pretty freaky arrangement with Simone, such details are the farthest from my mind as I make my way through La nausée.  Since visiting this site, I’ve come to question this approach—perhaps Sartre’s sexual bad-faith and moral cowardice in his personal life really do undercut the value of his philosophy.  On the other hand, I expect geniuses to have troubled lives.  The world is far too sick a place for the people who see its ills most clearly not to be messed up by it, at least a little.

 

So, in an Objectivist context, is Argumentum Ad Hominem even to be considered a logical fallacy? 

 

-Kevin


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Thursday, November 3, 2005 - 11:57amSanction this postReply
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So, in an Objectivist context, is Argumentum Ad Hominem even to be considered a logical fallacy?
 
 
It is always to be considered a logical fallacy.  Saying that someone is immoral is not the same thing at all as saying that their argument is false because they are immoral.  Though one can logically judge another, this is not the same as trying to refute anothers argument by slandering the person.


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Thursday, November 3, 2005 - 11:58amSanction this postReply
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Hey Kevin, there are a lot of people around here who are not Objectivists. And they make a lot of noise. I expect your disappointment comes from extending your optimism toward SOLO posters who haven't earned it.


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Thursday, November 3, 2005 - 12:12pmSanction this postReply
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Briefly, do as Rand says and not (always) as she does.  To say "this is wrong and here are my reasons" does not require personal attacks.  As the SOLOs have discussed at considerable length on the Argument from Intimidation and Critics of... threads, Rand was not above mixing character attacks with respectable arguments (though she always did provide the latter).  Even if you have sound reason to conclude bad motives and bad character on somebody's part, you don't have to mention this at all, much less present it as a reason to disagree with his statements.

Such attacks weren't always argumenta ad hominem in the strict sense, which is an inference from premises about character to conclusions about beliefs.  See her essay The Argument from Intimidation, wherein she distinguishes this from this other type of attack, which goes from beliefs to character.

Stick to the subject at hand.  It's worth the effort.

Peter


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Thursday, November 3, 2005 - 12:30pmSanction this postReply
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Kevin,

Jody made a critical distinction that should help you out. Sometimes, what looks like a subtle ad hominem attack in discussion is actually not- it's a tone thing- that can happen. The benefit of the doubt is good for things like that. A hard flaming, well, it's more sizzle than it is steak. You know why I say that? Because, while it might look like an impressive cut, the fact is that doing that stuff is a lot easier than staying to the idea. It comes easy to most people.

Nathaniel Branden states a related idea several ways, but I heard him say it like this in a lecture: "No one has ever reached the heights of glory by being told he or she is rotten."

He also points out that while you can't control the behavior of others, you certainly have the ability to control your own.

Things would go oh-so-much better if we were all a little more mindful of those statements.


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Thursday, November 3, 2005 - 3:03pmSanction this postReply
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Kavin, last week  I was thinking about persuasion, something close to the nature of your post .
Here is what I thought:
Persuasion
What are the reasons, for such desire?
If what I say interests you, a feeling of connect ness begins to form.
I become warmth toward you.
I get the pleasure of your interest, and you get the gift of my ideas.
We may  disagree on some issues, but the pleasure to share ideas
and the enrichment of  our knowledge is much greater than our diversities, which are normal  to exist.
To have  someone interested to my ideas and to be myself interested to someone else’s
ideas, is a difficult task, which  requires a strong will from both parts  before a reciprocal understanding and respect is established.
To understand someone else, even on purely intellectual level, is never easy.
Openness to ideas and argumentative sharpness are most of the time not equal.
Those with strong desire to persuade are unlikely to yield to persuasion easily.
They are as stubborn as their persuasive drive is strong.
 
To fight a person we give him reason , but how far can he go?
At the end of reason comes persuasion.
A natural question to ask is; but isn’t it possible to persuade by logic alone? Of course;
But honestly, how many of you have witnessed, out side a well defined context
Logic to prevail? Very rare I would say!
Just imagine how logic would work when there is our profession and personal interest at stake? Given the eagerness to win on one side, and the resistance to defend on the other,
Even professional competence may not be enough to ensure understanding or agreement
on even simple points.
 
Many philosophers and scientists find very hard  to understand others of their same profession. They have a mutual resistance to ideas other than their own.
Two philosophers know to be resistant to others ideas were; Kant, and Leibniz.
In a letter written in 1675, Leibniz describes how the style of philosophers like Bacon and
Gassendi, attracts him, while philosophers like Galileo repel him.
The reason was that to understand them requires” Deep Meditation” Finding it difficult
He explains, to follow  closely written or geometrical arguments.
This is what  Leibniz wrote ” Personally, though I have always loved to think by myself, I have always found it hard to read books ,which, one cannot understand with out much meditation, for in following one’s thoughts one follows a certain natural inclination and so gain profit with pleasure. One is violently disturbed, in contrast, when compelled to follow the thought of some else.”
 
Kant in a letter written when he was seventy, tells of the great difficulty he has in grasping other philosophers’ ideas. He could grasp the writing of his opponent only with the most extreme effort, because it was impossible for him to live his system of thought
To understand someone else.
He admitted this to himself so he left the defense of his philosophy to the students and to his friends. Because Leibniz and Kant were original creative philosophers their difficulty in following others is the observe of their intensity of thought in their own direction and their own needs.
Ayn Rand was like Kant and Leibniz, she would use questions and suggestion of others
Merely to stimulates and to set the wheels on her own thoughts.
A philosopher is naturally more difficult to persuade philosophically, than a layman.
To every philosopher even his allay, is his opponent, because , when their mutual opponent is absent, the allies’ differences grow more apparent. Just like in our own families, a brother or a father who resembles us shares our sensitivities , knows our week and sore spots, end enters into our lives in every way.

(Edited by Ciro D'Agostino on 11/03, 3:09pm)


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Sunday, November 6, 2005 - 6:50amSanction this postReply
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Denial... denial... denial... denial...

Rule 1:  Look, it is obvious that evil people hold evil opinions because they chose not to think. 

Rule 2:  If you identify an idea as evil, then the person who proposed the idea must be evil.  T

Rule 3:  This is especially true of strangers. 

Rule 4:  You can discover that your friends are evil and when you do, you have to abandon them.

However, it is true that virtuous people make errors in judgement based on limited knowledge about facts.  In that case, you can grant them a moral sanction while still disagreeing with them.  However, the fact remains that they are wrong.  At some point, if they do not come around, see Rule 4.

... or not... maybe life, the universe, and everything, are a bit more complicated than that...

... or maybe so... and life is tough when you are as virtuous as we all are...  we bear a lonely cross along a long road of sorrow, always being right in a world where everyone else is an islamofascist pomowanker social metaphysical whimworshipping looter saddamite ... and I am sure glad that you are not one of them...  (you aren't are you?)


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Sunday, November 6, 2005 - 11:20amSanction this postReply
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Michael, was that sarcasm?

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