A curious dilemma...

I wish the culture could be better

.

Don't we all........

Post 81

Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 7:09pm

because all hunter gathering nomadic tribes have been [warlike and barbaric] in human history

Anthropologically, all humans (and hominids that came before humans) have been warlike and barbaric in history. Some of humanity is still warlike and barbaric. At this moment of our growth as humans in the 21st century, it's now a choice whether to be warlike and barbaric to each other. I.e. we're not Stone Agers [kids] anymore.

I do partially come from an "eastern culture" and I know enough of its ins and outs to know how much merit it does have to "western culture" because I have grown up intimately with both. I can and do see that each one has different things to add to my life positively. I have a lot of pride in the good aspects of both roots-- western and eastern--, in the good things that I have seen and chosen to use in my life, in my mind. There is much to learn, more than just one culture versus another. I make my decisions depending the context of a specific topic within a culture, within life.

And Michael, my parents moved here to make opportunity and money in a time when both their countries did not give them such paths. Now, in today's context, Taiwan does give opporunities, as does business in China. However, in 5 years they're moving to Thailand to enjoy a cheaper living, warmer weather, a bigger house, and change of place. I've been to Thailand and think it's a wonderful place to live; my aunt and uncle live near Bangkok. I grew up in upstate NY because I had no choice; if it were up to me I'd grow up all over the world. Right now, I'd live in another country if I had any say-- I've got a ton of relatives in Sydney, Australia-- and nothing against the US, but I do like to see new things and exprience differences. For me, stepping outside of what I know is exciting and fascinating. I have no complaints being here, though, but I do know the world is bigger than the US and I intend to discover, adventure, and taste of more of this earth before I die.

Post 82

Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 11:35pm

John: �Fine Brendan, so what would you like us to call culture that entails the Age of Enlightenment and ancient Greek society?�

If you can find such a culture, you won�t have any problem attaching a label to it. But I doubt that you could easily integrate ancient Greek society with the Age of Enlightenment. For a start, which ancient Greek society would you choose: Athens or Sparta?

This is my point about cherry picking. Certainly, some of the West�s ideals are important and worth fighting for. I believe that universal suffrage is a major value, but others may consider that laissez-faire capitalism is a greater value. Some people judge the United States in a negative light for its high imprisonment rate, its retention of the death penalty, its religiosity, while ignoring the many positive aspects of that country.

I don�t have any problem with people passing judgement on aspects of other cultures. I do have a problem with blanket judgements, because they are usually just a way of asserting one�s superiority. Get past that level of analysis, and a comparison of cultures might be very fruitful.

Brendan

Post 83

Friday, June 30, 2006 - 7:47am

Brendan said:

I don�t have any problem with people passing judgement on aspects of other cultures. I do have a problem with blanket judgements, because they are usually just a way of asserting one�s superiority

Asserting one culture's moral superiority, absolutely and positively yes. As it should be. I can DEFINITELY MAKE A BLANKET JUDGEMENT because the judgement is TRUE!

I'll say this again, which culture is morally superior, superior means better,

The culture of America, that has laws that protect individual rights, or the culture of the Middle East, that has no respect for the right to life.

Which is morally superior? Are you telling me I can't make a blanket judgement? OUR culture, is morally superior. If I can't say that, you are allowing for the most vile idealogy of moral relativism to flourish.

Culture is not a zero-sum game. In anything in life, one must weigh the benefits with the costs. It is fallacious to assert if one culture is not 100% respectful to individual rights, that it therefore cannot be morally superior to anything else, that is ludicrous. If the US is mostly free, and the Middle East is mostly oppressive, you think there is no means of making a blanket judgement?

Tell me, where would you rather live? The United States, or Iran? I guess you would say you can't make a blanket judgement, it would depend on which aspect of culture we're talking about in each country, it would be arrogant to assert any kind of blanket moral superiority, so I guess it's all relative where the better place to live in. Is that your answer?

If you can find such a culture, you won�t have any problem attaching a label to it. But I doubt that you could easily integrate ancient Greek society with the Age of Enlightenment. For a start, which ancient Greek society would you choose: Athens or Sparta?

The one that has any relevance to our culture. Which one do you think? Spartan culture did not prevail, and added very little to the progress of man, Athenian culture did. Their ideas on science, art, philosophy, all of the things that modern Western societies currently follow, have their roots in Athenian culture. It is part of that evolution of Western culture that started in Athenian culture. Your criticisms of "cherry-picking" is disingenuous. I think you know what aspects of those cultures I am talking about, the only ones that are relevant and as Bill pointed out, it is worth cherry-picking.
(Edited by John Armaos
on 6/30, 8:10am)

Post 84

Friday, June 30, 2006 - 7:59am

Hong wrote:

Yes, the US and the west are the richest countries in the world with most advanced and superior political and economical systems, despite two devastating World Wars fought within a 30 years span, despite that 6 million Jews have been sent to the ovens, and despite the ideas of Communism have caused unprecedented atrocities in both the west and east countries. How can we prevent such things from happening again within the superior western culture?

Hong, I believe as long as one reject's moral relativism, that one believes that liberty is one of our most important values that cannot be compromised, we'll be ok. But as soon as the good people don't stand up, and denounce the atrocities committed by cultures around the world that don't respect individual rights, when the multiculturalists win, I think is when we're all in a heap of trouble.

Post 85

Friday, June 30, 2006 - 8:41am

http://www.code-d.com/china/victoria-peak-hong-kong-big.jpg

Jenna, it seems like you are just saying that western culture has some good and some bad, and eastern culture also has some good and some bad, and you recognize that, and that you have benefited by picking the best things to you of both. I don�t think anyone would disagree with you there, but we are talking about whether these �cultures� whatever we define them as, are more bad than good, or vice versa, and how they rate against one another.

Though I think such a comparison is a complex undertaking, it lacks feasibility no more than rating the respective freedoms of nations, which organizations like the non partisan Freedom House do a great job of. A similar discussion as this could certainly arise about which country is more free, X or Y, and by what standards. Of course they�ll have an easier job of it since they wont have to define �nation� before they start the comparison. Freedom House currently ranks 43 other nations as free as the US in regards to their political and civil freedoms. Their ratings are determined by survey teams measuring objective criteria. Take a look at their map of freedom (http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=15&year=2005) and ask yourself which countries rate higher, those that tend to be influenced by �western culture� or those influenced by �eastern cultures� (depending on your definition of course) and which ones you would like to live in? Freedom house unfortunately does not rate economic freedoms, but the Heritage Foundation publishes an annual Economic Freedom index, (http://www.heritage.org/research/features/index/) And here is their current ranking by scores (http://www.heritage.org/research/features/index/indexoffreedom.cfm) At the top of the chart is Hong Kong. Ten nations score higher than the US. I have no doubt plotting this data against median per capita income and life expectancy would reveal some interesting apparent correlations. Now I know these are just books, publications and charts and I couldn�t really know a culture�s freedom in a nation unless I lived there, but in lieu of spending decades living in every nation in the world these are the best practical ways we have to try to make assessments of these things.

Personally I wanted to eventually move to Hong Kong, as arguable it was the freest city economically on this planet, and I have a virtual reverent appreciation for it. However, now that it has lost it�s �western culture� governmental influence and has now been reclaimed by the �eastern culture� communist Chinese government, I am not so sure. It�s political and civil freedoms are lower and continue to fall. 10 other nations rank nearly as free economically and more free civilly and politically than Hong Kong and all of these appeal to me, but still none like the beautiful city state of skyscrapers of Hong Kong. I recently posted in another thread how here in CT they wanted to widen a 65 mile stretch of 95 by adding 1 lane on either side, this stretch is one of the worst in the country. The estimate was for 20 billion dollars over the course of 20 years (!!!!!!) Hong Kong, by comparison, in 7 years and with 20 billion dollars, built two bridges, both the worlds largest of their type, 22 miles of an elevated super highway, a 1.5 mile tunnel, a rail system running parallel to that highway, and artificial island where they built one of the worlds largest airports. One can have nothing but reverent respect for any nation that can do that and disgust for what CT and the US was not able to do.

Economically, Hong Kong is the closest thing to Galt�s Gulch that has yet existed on this planet.

Hong Kong �

http://www.skyscraperpicture.com/hongkong002.jpg

http://www.fitzblog.com/media/Fitzblog%20-%20Hong%20Kong%20-%20Skyline1%20Wallpaper.jpg

http://www.geraldbrimacombe.com/SE%20Asia%20-%20Orient/Hong%20Kong%20at%20night.jpg

Post 86

Friday, June 30, 2006 - 11:01am

Perhaps, this will clarified things a little. I just looked into my Webster dictionary for the definition of "culture":

"4. the sum total of ways of living built up by a group of human beings and transmitted from one generation to another."

That's what pretty much what I have in mind when we talk about culture. And that's why it's hard for me to consider the overall goodness of a culture, because I can't do the arithmetics with the good and bad aspects of a culture.

What you guys define as "western culture" are more like western ideas, or western systems of thoughts. Yes, I must admit that there are more Western ideas that I admire than the Eastern ones. It seems that in today's globalized environment, wherever people embrace those good ideas, where there are progress and prosperity. I think we probably all agree on that.

(Edited by Hong Zhang on 6/30, 11:05am)

Post 87

Friday, June 30, 2006 - 11:04am

John said,

Hong, I believe as long as one reject's moral relativism, that one believes that liberty is one of our most important values that cannot be compromised, we'll be ok.

I am more pessimistic than you. There are many other factors that are dangerous too. Ignorance is one of them.

Post 88

Friday, June 30, 2006 - 7:59pm

we are talking about whether these �cultures� whatever we define them as, are more bad than good, or vice versa, and how they rate against one another.

I'm sorry if I wasn't being clear. What I was trying to get at was that I don't rate whole cultures, as the totality of culture is too complex and dynamic to just chunk it up into a monolith.

I've learned to I rate things from within cultures-- I take one topic and compare how cultures treat that one topic, and more importantly, to try to understand it; I can still say that, in general, Chinese culture tends to engage in "saving face" or "humility" much more than US culture & that US culture can get too reductionistic and "sound-byte"-ish. Then I decide with a contingent judgement; I've found that I can still judge something while understanding it (and also judge something that is totally disgusting and nonunderstandable to me-- like the use of physical torture).

Also, I know I can't know everything about every culture, so for topics I don't know about, I accumulate knowledge until I can understand it enough, compare, and judge. And on top of that, topics aren't just good and bad for me; some of the practices are just different simply because I might not understand it-- like tea ceremonies.

And yeah, I wouldn't want to live in Hong Kong if that's how it's going. I'm not even sure I'd live in China unless it was a really, really, really good reason (like fabulous research opportunities that advance knowledge, and my career, greatly). I'd visit HK before it gets worse, though. :)

Post 89

Saturday, July 1, 2006 - 6:21pm

John: �OUR culture, is morally superior.�

My point was that claiming the moral superiority of one�s culture is often a way of claiming one�s own moral superiority. To take a concrete example, my country regularly features as one of the top two or three least corruptible countries in which to do business. My country also has half the imprisonment rate of the United States.

Does that mean that since Americans are apparently more prone to crime and corruption than my countrymen, my culture is therefore morally superior to yours, and that my countrymen are morally superior to Americans? Perhaps, but it may also be true that my country offers fewer opportunities for crime and corruption than does the United States.

You may be saying that certain cultures provide more opportunities for people to act morally, and I would agree with that. But culture is a long-term creation, and we in the Western world are lucky, because while we can claim some credit for upholding the values of our civilization, a lot of the hard graft of putting those values in place has been done for us by past generations.

Brendan

Post 90

Sunday, July 2, 2006 - 12:29am

Cultures are not superior since cultures are not individuals. Superiority comes from the action of something that is clearly the property of an individual. Claiming a culture is superior is very much in the same vein of thought as claiming a particular ethnicity is superior. And I believe Rand made a clear case against such collectivist thinking. (On a side note, so did Orwell...Funny how unlike minds come to the same correct conclusion...)

-- Bridget

Post 91

Sunday, July 2, 2006 - 8:39am

Michael D. brings up how it's possible to compare nations in terms of economic and political freedom. Freedom is a cardinal value in determining the morality of a culture/nation.

There are a few other cardinal values: Reason, Individualism, Capitalism, etc., and when they are put together -- comparisons can be made as the superiority of one culture/nation over the other (superiority in tending to the fulfillment of man's needs and desires).

"Superiority" is not a floating abstraction -- it stands for a few cardinal things (the things that matter most).

Ed

Post 92

Sunday, July 2, 2006 - 8:56am