Feminism

I'm looking for some perspective on Feminism, in regards to Objectivism. A lot of feminists or feminist groups I have seen exist to attack males in society, rather then strive for equality of the sexes. I've heard feminists condemn the modeling industry, pornography, music, and media because it enslaves and objectifies women. I don't agree with this, though. Private businesses such as modeling agencies and the film industry don't force women into anything. Also, there's a double standard for males with just about everything feminists point out that affects women. Pornography is probably the biggest issue when it comes to feminists I've known, but it's a voluntary, private business.

Post 1

Thursday, September 7, 2006 - 8:17am

Dustin,

Before digging into topics like this, as far as Objectivism goes, I recommend going back and getting a firm grasp of the basics of Metaphysics and Epistimology.

If you don't agree with or understand those, there is little point in trying to argue with or understand Objectivist views on this topic. Given the debate on the vegetarianism thread, I think your time would be well spent. Take it for what it's worth.

Ethan

Post 2

Thursday, September 7, 2006 - 9:11am

I'll take your advice Ethan, but I'd also like any opinions or insight on Feminism in the meantime.

Post 3

Thursday, September 7, 2006 - 9:13am

Dustin, on the Vegetarianism thread you admitted:

I've made a lot of smart ass comments here, admittedly. I've even contradicted myself and only read a sentance here and there of many posts. A lot of what I've done is simply urge the people who will type pages and pages of argument on to do so.

Why would someone want to debate feminism with you if you're only going to read a sentence or two here and there and make smart ass comments? Seriously, why?

Post 4

Thursday, September 7, 2006 - 9:44am

I was under the impression that Feminism and Vegetarianism are different subjects, and in different threads. Therefore, I feel differently and respond differently to both. I'll take my questions elsewhere.

Therefore, I guess you're going to be of no help to me, whatsoever. Thanks!
(Edited by Dustin
on 9/07, 9:45am)

Post 5

Thursday, September 7, 2006 - 9:56am

I was under the impression that Feminism and Vegetarianism are different subjects, and in different threads. Therefore, I feel differently and respond differently to both.

If someone steals your wallet once, does it mean he'll do it again? Not necessarily, but would you leave your wallet alone with him? I don't think so. So... given that you've demonstrated that
A) You are ignorant.
B) You are too lazy to read posts and respond accordingly.
C) You lack proper reasoning skills required to form a logical argument.

Why would anyone waste their time trying to educate you?

Post 6

Thursday, September 7, 2006 - 9:56am

I was under the impression that Feminism and Vegetarianism are different subjects, and in different threads. Therefore, I feel differently and respond differently to both.

Bad behavior is bad behavior. If you want to have discussions with people about serious topic, don't be surprised when people remember your previous performance. If you start really reading about Objectivism you'll see the whole consistency thing. In any event, this dovetails nicely with Jonathan's "anti-conceptual" thinking comment in the other thread. Objectivists don't treat siutation or people in a way that's divorced from reality and the context of previous events. You never geta second chance to make a first impression. If you want to get back into discussions here, have the courtesy to own up to your previous behavior, and educate yourself a bit about the philosophy. If you came here to educate yourself about the philosophy, that's fine, but you need to first realize what you have already said and done and then perhaps someone will talk to you about Objectivism.

Ethan

Post 7

Thursday, September 7, 2006 - 10:17am

I'll simply take my questions elsewhere. Keep in mind, though, your attitudes reflect on Objectivism. I've documented all of my discussion here and found just what I have been told by others about Objectivists to be true. I've been called names by adults, cursed at, and even had parts of my character (which you assumed to be true) criticized. I guess you really aren't open for discussion, when you're bringing drama about a different thread into this one. Keep in mind, you guys represent a scene of self labelled Objectivists. (I dropped the label/scene gig in high school)How you act represents Objectivism, in part. Hell, you don't even welcome potential or flowering Objectivists into your community. I asked a question about Feminism and a seperate thread and topic was immediately brought up. You have come off as elitist, narrow minded, and rude.

(Edited by Dustin
on 9/07, 10:26am)

Post 8

Thursday, September 7, 2006 - 10:24am

Keep in mind, Dustin, that you represent yourself, and you're not making a good impression. When someone shows up on an Objectivist forum and makes critical statements that show an ignorance of the philosophy and procedes to engage in irrational arguemntation and generally poor behavior, he will get what he deserves. I'm not worried about how this refelcts on Objectivism, as anyone who reads this and the other thread can make up their own mind. Those who think you behaved just fine are not the type of people who would be open to Objectivism in any case.

Ethan

Post 9

Thursday, September 7, 2006 - 10:28am

Ethan, do keep in mind that unlike you, I'm not a rich kid who has been in college for a few years studying philosophy. I don't even have the money to go to college or take classes, so when I get a chance to learn it is usually online, from people like you (who isn't being very helpful). I'm nineteen years old and study philosophy and Objectivism for leisure. You've done nothing to help teach me, but you have insulted. Maybe one day I can teach a class on Objectivism and use these forums as a reference, once I'm a philosophy master like you.
I'd never want to emulate the attitude I have seen here, though.
(Edited by Dustin
on 9/07, 10:30am)

Post 10

Thursday, September 7, 2006 - 10:33am

Dustin,

Sorry, I didn't grow up a rich kid. As I said, you came here and were rude. Why do you continue to wonder why you don't get a better response? Justice. Be nice, be rational, and I'll treat you just fine.

Ethan

Post 11

Thursday, September 7, 2006 - 10:37am

This is fruitless back and forth discussion. No one around here will steer me away from Objectivism, though. Since no one seems to have any opinion on the proposed topic, I will just let it be. I'm sorely dissapointed, though.
(Edited by Dustin
on 9/07, 10:39am)

Post 12

Thursday, September 7, 2006 - 10:56am

(I dropped the label/scene gig in high school)

I thought you labeled yourself a vegetarian?

Post 13

Thursday, September 7, 2006 - 1:01pm

Dustin,
I am a potential Objectivist who started visiting this site quite recently. I haven't decided yet if Objectivism is for me. If I decide against it will not be due to the people here. I have felt extremely welcomed. Everytime I have joined a topic or asked a question, I have received courteous, well-written and thoughtful responses. Sometimes I have been directed to further reading or research. That's part of why I'm here - to find out where to look for what I want to know. Sometimes I have not agreed with the responses. In those cases, I have said as much and attempted to understand further. I have had to change my mind a couple of times when the evidence presented to me was explained and found to be overwhelmingly against me. Most importantly, I have learned a great deal here.

I think the difference between you and I is that I am open to new information, new ways of thinking, and admitting when I am just plain wrong. Therefore, the members here have responded well to me. You don't seem to be open to anything at all. Therefore, I doubt you'll have very much luck getting good responses to any new topics.

Post 14

Thursday, September 7, 2006 - 3:38pm

I'm nineteen years old and study philosophy and Objectivism for leisure. You've done nothing to help teach me, but you have insulted.

You can't be serious. Dustin, you've make it abundantly clear that you're not interested in "learning" anything. In fact, I think you'll do pretty much anything to avoid learning.

I'm starting to wonder if you're disabled somehow; emotionally, or cognitively, or something. The type of outright evasion you've displayed doesn't come from mere adolescence. An honest 19 year old will own up to mistakes when confronted with them. Many are thrilled to learn a long held idea was a mistake. You're reluctant to even ponder the possibility you may be mistaken.

You appear to be very odd, but bright. Good language skills.

No one can make you learn, Dustin. That's never going to happen. You haven't learned anything because you're just not interested. Learning impairs your pet ideas, and you don't want that to happen. Instead, you blame the teachers for your failure to absorb beneficial information. That isn't the teacher's fault. That's your fault. Learning is your responsibility, not the teacher's.

Post 15

Thursday, September 7, 2006 - 4:41pm

All of this seems a little outlandish, I mean now I'm being considered of having a disorder! In reality, I was simply looking for information on Feminism. The impression some of you may get that I'm "never wrong" comes from the fact that I refuse to heed and say I'm wrong when it comes to the other topic in question (Vegetarianism). That's something I simply wont budge on. In honesty, I put forth minimal effort in that debate, and I also didn't use most of my resources I could have. I was looking for an opposing viewpoint - and I got it. I would now really (really) like to move on to the topic this thread was made for. Is anyone willing?
(Edited by Dustin
on 9/07, 4:47pm)

Post 16

Thursday, September 7, 2006 - 4:47pm

comes from the fact that I refuse to heed and say I'm wrong when it comes to the other topic in question (Vegetarianism). That's something I simply wont budge on.

That is called irrationality. Have a nice day.

Post 17

Thursday, September 7, 2006 - 4:49pm

Ethan, if I were to say meat eating is evil, horrible for your health, and degenerative for the good of the world, would you believe me? No, you wouldn't. If you didn't budge on that position, would you be irrational? I do not think so. I don't think refusing to budge on a certain belief is irrational. I guess we're simply not going to talk about Feminism. I'm leaving this forum to find a new group of scenesters who won't carry over a grudge from a totally seperate topic. I feel we may be colliding because where a lot of people here are "uptight" and serious, and I am often too lighthearted and uncaring. The reception I recieved here is memorable, though - none of you are as credible as Ayn Rand to me, though all of you have judged me based on my diet and my argument in regards to it.
(Edited by Dustin
on 9/07, 4:53pm)

Post 18

Thursday, September 7, 2006 - 5:01pm

You opened with an arguement about a comment on the evil of vegetarianism without even understadning what that statement said. That's why I told you to read it again. Did you ever do that??????????

Post 19

Thursday, September 7, 2006 - 5:05pm