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Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 9:20amSanction this postReply
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Where do Objectivism and science part ways?

Jordan


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Post 1

Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 9:41amSanction this postReply
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Your agenda is just too, too obvious. If you legitimately wanted an answer the question would be, "Does Objectivism depart from science?"

The short answer is, "No."

If you've got examples of where you think they might diverge, present them.

Sam


 


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Post 2

Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 10:43amSanction this postReply
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Objectivism is a particular constellation of theories on the issues that are the subject of that all-inclusive science known as philosophy.

Its answers to these issues, like the answers of other philosophies, can help (or hinder) the progress of the special sciences.

(Edited by Rodney Rawlings on 3/25, 10:51am)


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Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 10:57amSanction this postReply
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Objectivism is prefaced on Nature.

Science is prefaced on Nature.

Objectivism views all knowledge to be a combination of particulars and abstractions.

Science views all knowledge to be a combination of phenomena and theories [aka the same as particulars and abstractions].

Objectivism supports critical reasoning and discussion.

Science supports critical reasoning and discussion.

And I can go on, but the point is, Science is a methodology by which its principles parallel Objectivist principles.

-- Bridget

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Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 11:58amSanction this postReply
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Objectivism is philosophy and science is science.  It's just a "division of labor" thang.

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Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 12:16pmSanction this postReply
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     Interesting.

     The 'title' is about comparisons...and the opening question is about contrasts.

LLAP
J:D


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Post 6

Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 1:56pmSanction this postReply
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Sam,

I don't have an agenda. Geez. I was just curious what people thought. I figured that if Objectivism were identical to science, then Objectivism would be a needless extra. So certainly they are different in some sense.

I'm wondering how. *Saying* Objectivism is philosophy (as opposed to science) is not helpful, particularly because each field likes to occasionally invade the other. *Describing* how Objectivism is not, in all respects, science -- that's what I'm after.

So I'm not so interested in the overlap or commensurability between Objectivism and science. I'm wondering where one might exclude the other and why. I know there's plenty of science-related discussion peppered throughout Objectivist literature. I've read most if not all of it. But it's all gone fuzzy over time, so I find myself curious over this topic again.

John D,

Comparison is seeing how two or more items are the same and/or *are different*. The title properly corresponds to the question.

Jordan


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Post 7

Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 2:40pmSanction this postReply
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My answer spells it out.

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Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 2:42pmSanction this postReply
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To me it seems science is a methodology to ascertaining observed phenomena. Objectivism is an integrated philosophy that includes science, but is a philosophy for human living on Earth. Objectivism includes morality, ethics, aesthetics, and politico-philosophy. All essentials for man to live on this plant. Science does not involve the study of morality, ethics, aesthetics, or politics. Therefore science is perhaps a subset of Objectivism.

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Post 9

Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 3:20pmSanction this postReply
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Science or Objectivism?

First, to compare Objectivism and science, you must define your terms as some have done above. If you identify Objectivism strictly with all of the writings of Ayn Rand and her authorized co-writers (such as the authors of writers who appeared in The Objectivist) and with the "authorized" writers at ARI, then Objectivism can certainly be seen as differing from scientific consensus on various issues.

For example, while the scientific consensus posits that the known universe is apparently an entity of heretofore finite duration, which originated in the Big Bang, (and that there was nothing "before" the big bang - since there was no time or space before or outside of the universe prior to its existence) then one can hear in Peikoff's DIM lectures that science must be wrong on this account, not due to the evidence, but because it smacks of creationism and lends comfort to theists. In so far as this is an a priori position held by certain self-identified Objectivists for whatever reasons, it not only counters scientific consensus, it also seems to claim some sort of cosmological omniscience or prescience which Peikoff himself had disavowed in his discussion of "meta-puffs" in his Objectivism, the Philosophy of Ayn Rand.

Likewise, you have to define science. If one regards science as all systematized knowledge, then ideally, philosophy is the method and science is the product. But science as it is viewed nowadays is usually defined as dealing with matters largely limited to what is describable in physico-chemical terms, with biology being a borderline area where the concepts of purpose, progress, and "advanced" development are look upon with suspicion. Anything that implies evaluations and value-judgments is seen as somehow lying outside the conventional scientific realm.

Now, some scientists challenge the Big Bang theory on theoretical grounds, but none of whom I am aware are scared of it because it smacks of theism. And the fact that certain self-identified Objectivists criticize the theory, contra the evidence, on ideological grounds alone, does not mean that Objectivism itself, if defined as "the primacy of existence and the contextual objectivity of concepts" stands in opposition to science.

Indeed, as Ayn Rand herself said, "there is no such thing as Objectivism." There are just concrete people who may hold valid or invalid ideas about reality. Likewise, there is no such thing as science, there are just people and the ideas and concepts that they hold about the world which may be based upon observation, hypothesis, and experiment, or which may be based on confusion or blind faith.

The simple bottom line has been put forth well enough above - Objectivism is a philosophy which avers that knowledge is possible. Science is that knowledge, systematized and, when based on reason and observation, like Objectivism, it should be self-correcting.

Of course, ethics, and its sub-branches of aesthetics and politics are not usually thought of as sciences in the conventional sense. But these too are systematizable bodies of knowledge which should be based upon induction from the observation of reality. What is conventionally called science often excludes the ethical from its purview as being either subjective, relative, unfalsifiable or meaningless. This viewpoint is as widespread as it is false. So what is the difference between Objectivism as it should be and science as it is? Objectivism excludes no possible realm of thought from rational criticism, while science as conventionally conceived excludes, for reasons grounded in our traditionally dualistic culture, the humanities and the arts in so far as they espouse values. So one might say that the difference between science and Objectivism is that while the sciences largely view values as arbitrary or unapproachable, Objectivism does not.

Were Aristotelianism the dominant ideology in all the sciences and humanities, this dichotomy would disappear, and Objectivism would either mean simply Randianism in so far as it was particular to Rand, or it would be synonymous with reason and the truth. (It is for this reason that I distinguish between "Randian" and "Objectivist" as terms, and why I call myself an "objectivist" in the lower case.) As it stands, nothing in Objectivism should contravene scientific fact, if indeed it is fact; while the scope of science, as it currently defines itself, is smaller than that of Objectivism.

Ted Keer

(Revised and Expanded)

(Edited by Ted Keer
on 3/25, 4:35pm)

(Edited by Ted Keer on 3/26, 12:13pm)


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Post 10

Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 3:21pmSanction this postReply
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From Wikipedia: 
Science, in the broadest sense, refers to any system of objective knowledge. 
Objectivity in science is the property of scientific theories to make unequivocal predictions that can be tested independent from the individual scientist (the subject) who proposes them.
 
If there is a perceived conflict between Objectivism and science then the premises must be revisited. Both strive to discover objective truth as evidenced by reality, and as John says, science is a subset of Objectivism, as is mathematics.


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Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 5:42pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks for answers thus far. From what I gather, discussers are largely pointing to how science and Objectivism differ in *content*. I'm wondering whether the two differ in method. If both are a way of ascertaining what's going on in reality, do they differ at all in *how* they do so? Does Objectivism ever find it inappropriate to use the scientific method? Or perhaps more generally: What method(s) of ascertaining what's going on in reality does Objectivism use that are non-scientific? Some of you already hit on this; flesh this out a bit more if you would.

Jordan

Post 12

Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 7:03pmSanction this postReply
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     I'd have to say at this point that if one finds that there's a...perceived difference...'twixt 'science' (however one conceives that...definitionally) and O'ism, that, as Sam says, "...the premises must be revisited" (or, as Rand had said, "Check your premises"); that is, the premises of BOTH, regarding their internal coherency And their external relations coherency...if any...especially to each other. --- If one finds a perceived conflict...at least one of them is wrong.
      But, don't confuse 'science' with 'interpretations of science'; nor, especially, think that O'ism is not a 'science.'

LLAP
J:D


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Post 13

Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 7:05pmSanction this postReply
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Objectivism (like all philosophy) is aimed at the general knowledge available to man. Science is aimed at the special knowledge (special because it requires special tools and acumen) available to man.

Some "scientific" interpretations of data (e.g., the Copenhagen interpretation of Quantum Mechanics) "part ways" with Objectivism -- but this kind of thing is usually (if not, always) a result of the philosophical bankruptcy of individual scientists. It is not a condemnation of science, itself. For some examples of the philosophical bankruptcy of practicing professional scientists, see my article on the matter.

;-)

Ed


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Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 7:42pmSanction this postReply
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nor, especially, think that O'ism is not a 'science.'
True - after all, ethics is considered as the 'science of values'....



Post 15

Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 9:30pmSanction this postReply
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     What Ed and Robert said, and not only that, but also...

...lemme get back to ya on that.

LLAP
J:D

(Edited by John Dailey on 3/25, 9:33pm)


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Post 16

Sunday, March 25, 2007 - 11:42pmSanction this postReply
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Science is the best and most productive method for discovering information that is consistent with Reality (discovering truth).

Objectivism recognizes science and logical reasoning as the optimal learning method in the philosophical branch Epistemology.

Objectivism is a collection of ideas put together by Ayn Rand, further developed by people on this forum and elsewhere (despite Leonard Peikoff's claim of a different static definition of Objectivism).

Primarily, Objectivism satisfyingly answers the following questions (and more):

Metaphysics: what exists?
Epistemology: what truth can I learn, and how do I go about discovering it?
Ethics: What should I do? What is my purpose?
Politics: How should force be used?

Much of the knowledge in the philosophy of Objectivism is scientifically verified and undeniably true (yet of course there are plenty of insane people who still disagree with various points). This part is the Metephysics and Epistimology.

Now, given that you agree that your own life, your own ability to flourish and enjoy your own life, is your greatest goal, pretty much all of the Ethics and Politics are extremely logical, accurate, and useful.

Even if you were to say, have the goal of making currently poor people get stuff for doing nothing, you could still apply a great deal of knowledge in Objectivism to answer Ethical and Political questions. You would choose things like forcing rich people to pay more taxes in politics and complaining about rich people would be your highest virtue.

I think Objectivism is an excellent start for the basis of one's own philosophical system. Then you can use the scientific method and logic to figure out what is consistent with Reality, what is not, and make improvements.
(Edited by Dean Michael Gores
on 3/25, 11:43pm)


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Post 17

Monday, March 26, 2007 - 2:19amSanction this postReply
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Objectivism and science do not part ways. Objectivism is a philosophy and science is a general category of human knowledge like philosophy. So the correct question is if philosophy and science part ways.

Why not ask Rand herself? She answered it. From ITOE, 2nd Edition, p. 289

Philosophic vs. Scientific Issues

 

Prof. B: Is the concept of "matter" a philosophical concept or a scientific one?

AR: In the way we are using it here, as a very broad abstraction, it is a philosophical concept. If by "matter" we mean "that of which all the things we perceive are made," that is a philosophical concept. But questions like: what are different things made of? what are the properties of matter? how can you break it down? etc.—those are scientific problems.

Philosophy by its nature has to be based only on that which is available to the knowledge of any man with a normal mental equipment. Philosophy is not dependent on the discoveries of science; the reverse is true.

So whenever you are in doubt about what is or is not a philosophical subject, ask yourself whether you need a specialized knowledge, beyond the knowledge available to you as a normal adult, unaided by any special knowledge or special instruments. And if the answer is possible to you on that basis alone, you are dealing with a philosophical question. If to answer it you would need training in physics, or psychology, or special equipment, etc., then you are dealing with a derivative or scientific field of knowledge, not philosophy.

Michael



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