Getting ahead in a society that hates you

Is this what its all about, Eve?:

So, if there's a demand for something that's socially acceptable, it's the market at work. But if it's something unfamiliar and scary to you it's the Red Menace stealin' your money?

Do you honestly think most people give, or should give, a rat's ass about some mixed up, confused, seriously vacant, but otherwise, perfectly healthy people? Are you serious, Eve?

You're basically saying I should be drowning in depression because I'm not 25 (anymore), 5' 10", with a 150 IQ, loads of natural talent, and super model looks.

Do you know how many women kill themselves because they've lost their looks and youth? Plenty. Your argument should include these people too.
All cosmetic surgeries should be covered, if depression and suicide are a risk, right?

There really isn't any need for insurance companies to cover these procedures, anyway. A job, good credit and a loan will cover them.

That's how my neighbor across the street got to be a female.

Eve, why are you ignoring Bill,

Individual rights -- which imply the right to control one's life free from interference by others -- is a right that applies equally to every adult human being. "Group rights," in the sense I was using the term, pertains to different rights for different groups of adult human beings. In the past, whites had rights that blacks didn't have, and men had rights that women didn't have. These were "group rights" in the sense I was using it, and were illegitimate, because they did not recognize the equal rights of every person as an individual.

And Jeff,

Most people are not interested in paying an increased premium for sex-change operations which they will not use, so this procedure is typically not included in most available packages.

And Erica?

Also, liberals tend to blur the lines between injustices that occurred legally in the U.S. in centuries past, and what is now mainly just the manifestation of ignorance on the part of some people. (There are already criminal and civil legal remedies for the times when that ignorance spills over into actual crime.)

And why are you pickin' on Steve? There are some excellent arguments against you here, but you chose to attack Steve, and I'm wondering why that is.

Are you a bully, Eve?  I'm thinking you're a bully looking for someone to knock that chip off.  And like most bullies, you've zeroed in on someone you think won't be defended.

Shame on you, girl. Shame shame shame.

Post 61

Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 6:02pm

John also makes another good point about insurance. Coverage should only be for things we really don't want if we are able to avoid them. If we had insurance for things of positive value, there would be huge abuse as everyone scrambled to get as much of the desired product as possible. By limiting coverage to generally undesirable areas, there is a natural tendency to only avail ourselves of the procedure or medicine when it is absolutely necessary.

Regards,
--
Jeff

Post 62

Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 6:50pm

Teresa you write wonderfully! 'Rat's ass', I like that.

As for Eve, well, I think she just doesn't get it. I too thought of cosmetic surgery in relation to sex reassignment and they seem to be the same to me. I might be persuaded to Eve's side if there were evidence that this surgery was necessary to the sustainment of life, however, there doesn't appear to be any.

I would not, though, agree with her that an insurer should be made (forced) to provide this 'treatment'.

And again, I'm not sure that a transgender person is not just a mentally ill person.

Post 63

Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 7:28pm

Steve -

I would not, though, agree with her that an insurer should be made (forced) to provide this 'treatment'.

Right. No one is forced to use medical insurance either, despite Hillary and her fellow Dem's claims that we're all gonna die! AAAAH!

And again, I'm not sure that a transgender person is not just a mentally ill person.

Oh! And why didn't you comment on Mike Dickey's post, Eve??

I'm pretty sure there are some organic issues going on with this. I don't think its all in the head. What is in the head, is how one deals with what nature gives them. I encourage understanding, but discourage the idea that every flaw is a moral imperative for others to "fix."

Post 64

Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 9:17pm

Erica wrote:

to not embrace a perpetual victim mentality

My favorite example of a 'victim' mentality is my great aunt who at 65 spent a half hour complaining that when she was 5 or 6 her mother used to make her move to a different seat at the kitchen table for her younger brother!

whoa! GET OVER IT!

Post 65

Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 3:41am

There ought to be a law...

George W. Bush

Jimmy Carter

John Kerry

John Kerry/George W. Bush

Jimmy Carter

George W. Bush

Jimmy Carter

George W. Bush

Bill Clinton

George W. Bush

Jimmy Carter

Bill Clinton

Colin Powell

Don Rumsfeld

Bill Clinton

Bill Clinton

Prince Charles

Post 66

Friday, July 27, 2007 - 1:14am

(Edited by Ted Keer
on 7/27, 10:17pm)

Post 67

Friday, July 27, 2007 - 3:54am

You reminded me of something, Ted.

I had a friend who owned a resale shop next to where I worked. During one of my frequent lunch break visits, she told me about some customers she'd been getting in the shop. Men dressed as women.

Now, my friend was sorely under-educated, but very smart. Her first transsexual customer was shocking, but she said he was so nice and friendly, her fears with him were dismissed. He bought a few dresses, but was disappointed there were no shoes in his size. She told him she'd keep an eye out for shoes and give him a call.

Sure enough, she started buying clothes and shoes that would fit a male. This customer told his transgendered friends about the shop and within a month, my friend had all kinds of cross dressers and transsexuals coming in. She even made a special "section" in the shop for stuff these guys would request. Sparkly, glittery, foo foo stuff.

These were some of the best customers she had. She didn't care much about why they did what they did. She only cared about whether or not they were happy with their purchase.

Post 68

Friday, July 27, 2007 - 8:54am

I think Mickey Spillane said that he had no fans only customers, and customers where real friends.

Post 69

Friday, July 27, 2007 - 8:55am

I wonder how many transgendered people might have an unrealistic view of themselves and of their appearance -- might see themselves as looking or being more like the opposite sex than they appear to the average person, so that their perception of themselves is somewhat skewed.

The reason I say this is that I met a transexual libertarian who envisioned himself as looking more like a "barbie doll" after his sex-change operation than the average woman and therefore as being the envy of women everywhere. Yet he was a strapping 6 foot 4, and was about as far from a "barbie doll" in his appearance as one could imagine. Although he was young -- 25 -- he didn't look at all like a young woman that age, let alone like a barbie doll.

His image of himself reminded me of the same departure from reality that anorexics have vis-a-vis their own self-image. An anorexic looks in the mirror and sees a fat person. A preoperative transexual looks in the mirror and sees a person of the opposite sex. I suspect that one's own psychology can color one's physical self-image more than one realizes.

This sort of thing happens with male body builders too. A normal man looks in the mirror and sees a "pencil necked geek." But unlike the transexual, he doesn't like what he sees and tries to erase it by becoming excessively muscular. The female anorexic does the same thing by trying to erase what she sees as a fat person by becoming excessively thin.

These are all attempts to change reality to fit one's perception rather than changing one's perception to fit reality. Instead of addressing one's psychology and adjusting one's self-image to fit one's actual physical appearance, one alters one's physical appearance to satisfy one's self-image.

- Bill
(Edited by William Dwyer
on 7/27, 9:02am)

Post 70

Friday, July 27, 2007 - 9:06am

Which is why I asked whether these people may just be mentally ill rather than physically. And it may be true. If you 'see' something everyday, looking like a hot tennis star when you really look like Buzz Aldrin, you may begin to feel that this is reality.

Post 71

Friday, July 27, 2007 - 1:03pm

These are all attempts to change reality to fit one's perception rather than changing one's perception to fit reality.

I can not resist conveying one of my favorite Aristotle quotes related to this topic:

"A proper sense of one's self is based on a reverent love for the truth"

Post 72

Friday, July 27, 2007 - 5:35pm

The reason I say this is that I met a transexual libertarian who envisioned himself as looking more like a "barbie doll" after his sex-change operation than the average woman and therefore as being the envy of women everywhere.

You might be right, Bill.

I wonder about that too. My neighbor across the street has a feminine face, lovely, really. I don't know if she had work done to her face, but I suspect it. She wears normal summer stuff, showing off her back and legs, which are still extremely masculine. Can't change the bone structure and muscle attachment, I guess. From a distance, you'd never suspect she was a he a dozen or so years ago. Except from the back. Unmistakably male from that perspective.

She lives alone, and never has company, except for her mother and a brother who visit several times a year. I don't think she has many friends, and I find that terribly sad. I tried to be friendly, but got the cold shoulder. She was far more interested in being friends with my husband than with me, which is the object of countless jokes around here, let me tell you!

I don't know any females, let alone males, that could pull that Barbie Doll look off.

Post 73

Friday, July 27, 2007 - 5:47pm

If you 'see' something everyday, looking like a hot tennis star when you really look like Buzz Aldrin, you may begin to feel that this is reality.

LOL, Steve...

Thinking about Bill's "anorexic sees fat in the mirror," idea, it appears the opposite is also true, i.e. very very chubby young ladies wearing things they shouldn't. But maybe that's not a bad thing, seeing yourself as slim and athletic, then dressing according to what you "see." I don't know....

If you identify with a hot tennis star, why not dress like one? Sure, it might be pouring out everywhere, but so what?

Post 74

Friday, July 27, 2007 - 5:56pm

And then show up at American Idol believing ye can sing, when ye not do a decent squawk.... RIIIIIIIGHT...

Post 75

Friday, July 27, 2007 - 8:16pm

Friday, July 27, 2007 - 8:49pm

I tried to be friendly, but got the cold shoulder. She was far more interested in being friends with my husband than with me, which is the object of countless jokes around here, let me tell you!

That's funny, Teresa! The transexual or "transgendered person" I met (I never know which terminology is politically correct these days) is "bisexual." So s/he would probably be interested in you too! ;-) Speaking of "bisexual," it seems that gays aren't just gay anymore; they're "bisexual." But I wonder how many true bisexuals there really are -- people who actually have relationships with both sexes. Not that there aren't some, but I can't believe they're all that common. I suspect that it's simply become trendy among gays to say their bisexual, although it does happen.

Years ago, an attractive young woman I'd dated made an alarming call to me. She'd had a brief relationship with a guy who subsequently told her he was bisexual and that he was HIV positive. He hadn't told her initially and hadn't used a condom, so she was in a panic. She got tested, and fortunately confirmed that she was not infected. But that's a risk for women who get involved with bisexual men.

I've used the pronoun "s/he" to refer to the transgendered, something that Eve as well as others took me to task for awhile ago. The argument is that once a person has had a sex-change operation, s/he is unambiguously a member of the opposite sex, and so any reference to "hir" is disrespectful. I suppose there's some merit to this argument, as there is certainly a difference between a "pre-op" transsexual and a post-op. The pre-op is ambiguous; the post-op has removed all doubt! Well, almost; as Teresa observes, the bone structure is there to stay as well as the voice (for men who've changed to women). I understand that for women who take steroids, the voice deepens.

I had some serious online disagreements with my (soon to be) transsexual libertarian around the time that Arnold Schwarzenegger made his famous "girlie-men" comment in reference to his liberal critics. So, in a sarcastic bit of humor, I used the term "girlie-man" in one of my replies to hir and took considerable flak for it. I was accused by other libertarians of being a raging bigot and a homophobe, and banned from one of their libertarian "salons." I love it! Libertarians feel obliged to tolerate anyone and everyone, except the politically incorrect who disagree with them. Then there is no tolerance!

My feeling at the time was that this person was still an unaltered male, who dressed and acted like a woman to the best of hir ability, so that the term "girlie-man" was a pretty accurate characterization. Maybe the term was a bit insensitive, but if you're a guy who dresses and acts like a woman, is this really something you can object to?

If memory serves, "girlie-boy" is an accepted term in Thailand, where one of their top martial artists is a drag queen. I know this, because some Thai girls gave a talk at my university complete with pictures of the guy dressed as a woman and performing his martial artistry in combat -- although not at the same time, God forbid! :-| It should be noted that he (or should I say S/he) is held in high esteem in Bangkok!

I once knew a guy named "Larry" who was a road runner, and a pretty good one at that. One day, Larry was walking down O'Farrell Street in San Francisco, and saw a bar called, of all things, "The Road Runner." So, Larry thought, "This is the bar for me," and walks in to have a drink. He sits down at the bar, and notices that the woman in the place are rather tall. Not only that, their voices are deeper than usual. Then it suddenly dawns on Larry, and he makes a beeline for the door, breaking the hinge as he runs out in a panic. Simultaneously, all the queens in the place shout "bingo"!

But, after thinking about it, Larry realizes that his action was, after all, a bit rash, and so he decides to return to the bar to show what a good sport he is. I think he had to pay for the busted door too. At any rate, the place grows on him, and he becomes friendly with the local clientele.

Well, one day, Larry is walking down the same street with his mother, and one of the patrons sees him from across the street and shouts "LARRY, OH LARRY, YOU WHO, LARRY!" Larry's mother turns to him and says, "Larry! Larry! Who is that person shouting at you from across street?!? I think Larry had a difficult time explaining the relationship to his mother.

"The Road Runner" is no longer there. And the last time I saw Larry was in a topless bar.

- Bill :-)

(Edited by William Dwyer
on 7/27, 8:59pm)

Post 77

Saturday, July 28, 2007 - 6:02am

Saturday, July 28, 2007 - 12:04pm

Is it more Aristotelian to examine your own soul and self honestly, and to accept your own drives for what they are, or is it Aristotelian to accept society's outward classification of you by outward appearance, and then to ignore your actual identity and accept the platonic ideal of straight male?

Ted, are you referring to homosexuality or to gender dysphoria? Obviously, outward appearance has nothing to do with homosexual orientation. It wasn't clear from your post, which referred to infidelity, voyeurism and pedophilia as consequences of remaining in the closet, none of which has anything to do with gender dysphoria. If you meant to include the latter, then the alternative you posed is not the only option. If one is uncomfortable with one's gender, one can seek psychological counseling in an effort to become more self-accepting of one's actual biological nature. To be sure, this option is not always successful, but it is an alternative that you didn't address.

And what about a person who is uncomfortable not with his or her birth gender, but with his or her sexual orientation? Observe how politically incorrect it is to suggest that one attempt to resolve this dysphoria through psychotherapy -- politically incorrect, because psychotherapy is seen as implying that there is necessarily something wrong with the orientation. Granted, if there is nothing wrong with the sexual orientation and the reason that one is uncomfortable with it is only that society disapproves, then that is certainly no reason to attempt to change it, which would be pure social metaphysics. But if one feels that one would be happier in the long run if one's orientation were different -- let's say that one wants to have children -- then there might be some justification for altering (or attempting to alter) it through psychotherapy, assuming that were possible.

The psychotherapeutic option may be easier to accept if one considers a sexual orientation that, if practiced, is clearly undesirable -- pedophilia. Here the only option is not actively and publicly pursuing the object of one's sexual interest -- young children -- or remaining in the closet and embracing sexual abstinence. Psychotherapy is clearly an option worth considering, even if its chances of success are not high.

Nowadays, there is a tendency to accept one's emotions as irreducible primaries, with the only alternative being either to deny and repress them or to embrace them as an indelible part of one's core psychology. The idea of changing or reprogramming them, especially as regards one's sexual orientation, is ruled out of court as a draconian attempt to deny one's individuality and mandate conformity to a social ideal.

This, of course, is not the view of emotions that Objectivism endorses. According to Objectivism, emotions result from one's estimate or evaluation of one's relationship to reality, and will differ accordingly, as the estimate differs. On this view, emotions are not an innate or unalterable part of one's psychology, but can be reprogrammed by changing one's evaluations. Whether or not this is worth doing in any given case is another question entirely.

- Bill
(Edited by William Dwyer
on 7/28, 3:35pm)

Post 79

Sunday, July 29, 2007 - 8:52pm