About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadPage 0Page 1Page 2Forward one pageLast Page


Post 0

Wednesday, February 27, 2008 - 8:49pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I'm curious what folks here think about the government outlawing stuff that claims unsubstantiated or nonexistent medical benefits, like the myriad dietary supplements presently stocked in drug stores around the nation.

****

I.

Objectivists are cool with outlawing fraud, but tell me which of the following are okay to outlaw and why:

1. Snake oil with a claim that it can cure cancer. No studies have been done on this subject.

2. Snake oil with a claim that it can cure cancer. Studies show no effect in snake oil on curing cancer.

3. Snake oil with a claim that it can cure cancer. Studies show that instances of cancer actually increase with injestion of snake oil.

****

II.

Next, does it matter whether the claim is about cancer rather than, say, making shinier fingernails?

****

III.

Next, Objectivists are typically not okay with restricting the market, so I'm wondering how that will play into answering the above questions.

I'm also wondering how much the old ideas of "buyer beware" and "you can't cheat an honest man" play into this.

****

IV.

Last, and perhaps related to III, what do Objectivists think of the idea that it's wrong to capitalize on goods that succeed by way of people's irrationality.

Jordan

Post 1

Wednesday, February 27, 2008 - 11:05pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Reply to #0.

Do you think fraud should be punished?

As to somewhat exaggerated claims, the solution is the same as it always has been: let the buyer beware.

Bob Kolker


Sanction: 11, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 11, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 11, No Sanction: 0
Post 2

Thursday, February 28, 2008 - 8:04amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Jordan, here are some answers ...

I.

Objectivists are cool with outlawing fraud, but tell me which of the following are okay to outlaw and why:

1. Snake oil with a claim that it can cure cancer. No studies have been done on this subject.

2. Snake oil with a claim that it can cure cancer. Studies show no effect in snake oil on curing cancer.

3. Snake oil with a claim that it can cure cancer. Studies show that instances of cancer actually increase with injestion of snake oil.
I'm a self-acclaimed expert at the interface of science and marketing. These 2 scenarios require qualification for law to enter into the picture, though. Part of the answer to why we need qualification has to do with a lack of standardization of the term "studies." It's harder to qualify than you might think. With proper qualifications, here's how and why it would be okay to outlaw these:


1. Snake oil with a claim that [studies have been done on it and] it can cure cancer. No studies have been done on this subject.

The fraud here is beyond reasonable doubt. Cancer is a tricky disease with documented "spontaneous remissions." If someone had a spontaneous remission while taking snake oil, then the original (general) claim is not fraudulent "beyond reasonable doubt"

**In cases 2 and 3, fraud that's beyond reasonable doubt would require study citations within the claim.


 
II.

Next, does it matter whether the claim is about cancer rather than, say, making shinier fingernails?
No.




III.

Next, Objectivists are typically not okay with restricting the market, so I'm wondering how that will play into answering the above questions.

I'm also wondering how much the old ideas of "buyer beware" and "you can't cheat an honest man" play into this.
Should be sufficiently answered above. These old ideas -- as long as the 1st Amendment holds -- are still central.



 
IV.

Last, and perhaps related to III, what do Objectivists think of the idea that it's wrong to capitalize on goods that succeed by way of people's irrationality.
The Objectivist view of the market is that it "teaches" rationality to us. In a truly free market, pandering to irrationality is self-limiting and, therefore, inconsequential. Here's Rand on that:

By "philosophically objective," I mean a value estimated from the standpoint of the best possible to man, i.e., by the criterion of the most rational mind possessing the greatest knowledge, in a given category, in a given period, and in a defined context (nothing can be estimated in an undefined context). For instance, it can be rationally proved that the airplane is objectively of immeasurably greater value to man (to man at his best) than the bicycle—and that the works of Victor Hugo are objectivelyof immeasurably greater value than true-confession magazines. But if a given man's intellectual potential can barely manage to enjoy true confessions, there is no reason why his meager earnings, the product of his effort, should be spent on books he cannot read—or on subsidizing the airplane industry, if his own transportation needs do not extend beyond the range of a bicycle. (Nor is there any reason why the rest of mankind should be held down to the level of his literary taste, his engineering capacity, and his income. Values are not determined by fiat nor by majority vote.)

 

Just as the number of its adherents is not a proof of an idea's truth or falsehood, of an art work's merit or demerit, of a product's efficacy or inefficacy—so the free-market value of goods or services does not necessarily represent their philosophically objective value, but only their socially objective value, i.e., the sum of the individual judgments of all the men involved in trade at a given time, the sum of what they valued, each in the context of his own life.

 

Thus, a manufacturer of lipstick may well make a greater fortune than a manufacturer of microscopes—even though it can be rationally demonstrated that microscopes are scientifically more valuable than lipstick. But—valuable to whom?

 

A microscope is of no value to a little stenographer struggling to make a living; a lipstick is; a lipstick, to her, may mean the difference between self-confidence and self-doubt, between glamour and drudgery.

 

This does not mean, however, that the values ruling a free market are subjective. If the stenographer spends all her money on cosmetics and has none left to pay for the use of a microscope (for a visit to the doctor) when she needs it, she learns a better method of budgeting her income; the free market serves as her teacher: she has no way to penalize others for her mistakes. If she budgets rationally, the microscope is always available to serve her own specific needs and no more, as far as she is concerned: she is not taxed to support an entire hospital, a research laboratory, or a space ship's journey to the moon. Within her own productive power, she does pay a part of the cost of scientific achievements, when and as she needs them.--CUI, 24


... the intellectual criteria of the majority do not rule a free market or a free society—and that the exceptional men, the innovators, the intellectual giants, are not held down by the majority. In fact, it is the members of this exceptional minority who lift the whole of a free society to the level of their own achievements, while rising further and ever further.

A free market is a continuous process that cannot be held still, an upward process that demands the best (the most rational) of every man and rewards him accordingly. While the majority have barely assimilated the value of the automobile, the creative minority introduces the airplane. The majority learn by demonstration, the minority is free to demonstrate. The "philosophically objective" value of a new product serves as the teacher for those who are willing to exercise their rational faculty, each to the extent of his ability. Those who are unwilling remain unrewarded—as well as those who aspire to more than their ability produces. The stagnant, the irrational, the subjectivist have no power to stop their betters …

 

The mental parasites—the imitators who attempt to cater to what they think is the public's known taste—are constantly being beaten by the innovators whose products raise the public's knowledge and taste to ever higher levels. ...--CUI, 25

The "philosophically objective" value of a new product serves as the teacher for those who are willing to exercise their rational faculty, each to the extent of his ability. Those who are unwilling remain unrewarded—as well as those who aspire to more than their ability produces …

 

A given product may not be appreciated at once, particularly if it is too radical an innovation; but, barring irrelevant accidents, it wins in the long run. It is in this sense that the free market is not ruled by the intellectual criteria of the majority, which prevail only at and for any given moment; the free market is ruled by those who are able to see and plan long-range—and the better the mind, the longer the range.--CUI, 26

 

Ed


Post 3

Thursday, February 28, 2008 - 12:23pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Good answer, Ed.

I would also say that instead of outlawing the product, since some people may want it even if they know that unsubstantiated claims are being made for it, simply set the record straight by publicizing the fact that the claims are unsubstantiated, and let people decide for themselves whether or not to buy it. Banning it is an interference with the rights of those consumers who would like to try the product nonetheless.

- Bill

Post 4

Thursday, February 28, 2008 - 12:43pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Thanks, Bill. I agree with your additional point. Folks should be allowed to take the risks that they choose.

On that note, in the university, my socialist professor taught us that there's something popular among collectivists called the Precautionary Principle. Like Pareto Optimality or the formerly doctor-utilized Hippocratic Oath -- it's about not doing harm in the first place.

Trouble is, if you're short-sighted and narrow-minded enough, you wouldn't even get out of bed (because there's elevated risk in that action) -- let alone exercise (because there's even a sustained elevation of risk in that, before conditioning helps overall risk come back down).

We could have exercise outlawed by the exercise police, because of this sustained elevation of risk. Folks would have to wear heart-rate monitors and would get fines in the mail -- or perhaps get thrown in jail -- for any (unexplained) sustained elevation of heart rate.

;-)

Ed


Post 5

Thursday, February 28, 2008 - 3:29pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Bob Kolker:

Do you think fraud should be punished?


Do you think it shouldn't?

Post 6

Thursday, February 28, 2008 - 5:06pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
People who commit fraud should be burned at the stake.

Bob Kolker


Post 7

Thursday, February 28, 2008 - 5:22pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Thanks for your valuable contribution Robert.

Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Post 8

Thursday, February 28, 2008 - 6:12pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Oh, how I love a good intellectual discussion!


Post 9

Thursday, February 28, 2008 - 6:32pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Oh, how I love a good intellectual discussion!



ye do? then why the posting here in this thread...........;-)

[oh - ye mean that WASN'T a sarcastic remark........;-0

(Edited by robert malcom on 2/28, 6:36pm)


Post 10

Thursday, February 28, 2008 - 7:55pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Hi Ed,
**In cases 2 and 3, fraud that's beyond reasonable doubt would require study citations within the claim.
So 2 & 3 are outlawable fraud unless they cite studies supporting their claim? Sounds like Bill D was suggesting as much.
 These old ideas -- as long as the 1st Amendment holds -- are still central.
I don't understand. Fraud has never been protected under the First Amendment. Waddya mean?
The Objectivist view of the market is that it "teaches" rationality to us. In a truly free market, pandering to irrationality is self-limiting and, therefore, inconsequential
So you think the market success of various snake oil products are a consequence of having a less than truly free market?

Jordan


Post 11

Thursday, February 28, 2008 - 8:30pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Jordan, no -- 2 & 3 aren't outlawable fraud as they are worded. Here's how to make them fraudulent beyond reasonable doubt [bracketed changes]:

==============
2. Snake oil with a claim [that certain studies show] that it can cure cancer. [Those same, certain] studies show no effect in snake oil on curing cancer.

3. Snake oil with a claim that [there are no studies showing that it increases] cancer. Studies show that instances of cancer actually increase with injestion of snake oil.
==============

And -- while you're right that the 1st Amendment doesn't protect fraud -- it's the standardization of what is meant by "studies show" that's getting you hung up on thinking so (or on thinking that that's what I'm thinking).

Let me give you an example. Fresh vegetables have always been thought and taught to be good for you. There are even studies showing that fresh, whole produce is better than refined and processed food products merely containing veggies as ingredients. Then came Lycopene, a superstar carotenoid which has reversed prostate cancer in clinical trials! Whoa.

But here's the rub, while it's veggies like tomatoes that contain the most Lycopene, fresh tomatoes don't even hold a candle to the kind of bio-available Lycopene that you can get from refined and processed food products such as spaghetti sauce.

In other words, even though studies show fresh veggies are good for you -- it wouldn't be fraudulent for some Italian Chef, maybe a Boy-ar-dee or a Bertolli or whoever, to have the claim that their refined product is better than whole food (for prostate cancer).

Another relevant claim is the claim for cereal -- like Cheerios -- that it lowers cholesterol. When food companies first put that ad on boxes, however, the amount of soluble fiber required to lower someone's cholesterol -- ACCORDING TO THE STUDIES -- was so high that you'd need a half-dozen bowls in order to reach it.

=============
So you think the market success of various snake oil products are a consequence of having a less than truly free market?
=============

Yes, but not for the reasons you seem to ascribe to me. A little over a century ago, there wasn't any regulation in medicinal products. Now we have a coercive (gov't-associated) monopoly on them.

Let me turn it around and ask you, Jordan. Do you think that the snake oil problem was worse then, or now?

Ed

Post 12

Thursday, February 28, 2008 - 10:03pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I think that in order for an unsubstantiated claim to be fraudulent, the seller must know (or at least believe) that the claim is false. In other words, he must intend to deceive the customer. If he thinks that what he is claiming is true, then even if the claim happens to be false, the sale is not fraudulent.

For example, let's say that vitamin C has no effect on the common cold, but that a seller thinks it does and says so in order to sell the product. If the researchers at the FDA know (or believe) otherwise, they can publicize this fact, but they have no business outlawing the sale of vitamin C, because there are consumers who may disagree with the FDA's assessment and think that it does help in curing the common cold, and they have a right to act on their judgment.

Fraud exists in cases in which the customer wouldn't buy the product if the seller told the customer what he, the seller, believes to be the truth about it. For example, if a seller lies to a customer that a bottle of vitamin C contains bioflavonoids, knowing that the customer wouldn't purchase it if the customer knew this, then that is fraud. It's deliberate misrepresentation for the purpose of selling a product that the seller knows the customer wouldn't otherwise buy.

- Bill




Post 13

Thursday, February 28, 2008 - 10:05pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ed I'm not aware of any empirical studies to show whether there are more snake oil products now than before, but the government does routinely crack down on fraudulent product claims, and I don't think that's a bad thing. But I wouldn't agree the products should be banned. I do think a producer should be coerced to stop making false claims about the product as this is an appropriate use of retaliatory force against fraud.

Bill

would also say that instead of outlawing the product, since some people may want it even if they know that unsubstantiated claims are being made for it, simply set the record straight by publicizing the fact that the claims are unsubstantiated, and let people decide for themselves whether or not to buy it. Banning it is an interference with the rights of those consumers who would like to try the product nonetheless.


I agree Bill. But I wouldn't necessarily think making a producer withdraw false claims about their product should mean the product should be banned. Only the false information. For example remember those baloney ab belts they were selling on TV that stimulated your ab muscles to contract through an electrical pulse? The FTC didn't ban the product, but they did tell them they risked fines if they didn't stop making false claims about their product.

Post 14

Friday, February 29, 2008 - 7:14amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I really, really, despise these products.  The problem is they always couch their claims with various legal disclaimers.  However, I think we need more restrictions on fake products like these, not less.  Just turn on the TV you will find:

1) Hucksters like Trudeau and his "natural cures"
2) Pain goes away with copper or magentic bracelets
3) Purge your body of "toxins" that in reality are entirely illusory

I believe if the general "claim" being made can be proven to be false, such advertising and products should be banned.

Too much harm is being done by these fraudulent practices.

(Edited by Kurt Eichert on 2/29, 7:15am)


Post 15

Friday, February 29, 2008 - 8:40amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I believe if the general "claim" being made can be proven to be false, such advertising and products should be banned.
So, if the claim that copper or magnetic bracelets eliminate pain can be proven to be false, copper or magnetic bracelets should be banned? If the claim that vitamin C cures the common cold can be proven to be false, vitamin C should be banned? If the claim that tomato sauce fights prostate cancer can be proven to be false, tomato sauce should be banned?

Wow!
(Edited by William Dwyer on 2/29, 8:48am)


Post 16

Friday, February 29, 2008 - 9:34amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
advertising the product as a cure for X that is demonstrably false, yes.  Selling it as jewelry, no of course not.

Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 17

Friday, February 29, 2008 - 11:34amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Bill,

====================
So, if the claim that copper or magnetic bracelets eliminate pain can be proven to be false, copper or magnetic bracelets should be banned? If the claim that vitamin C cures the common cold can be proven to be false, vitamin C should be banned? If the claim that tomato sauce fights prostate cancer can be proven to be false, tomato sauce should be banned?
====================

That method of thinking -- as arbitrary or absurd as it is on its face -- has been the procedure of the FDA for the past few decades, spending millions upon millions (if not, billions) of our tax dollars in the process.

Annual harm from FDA-approved food is in the 100s of thousands. Annual deaths from FDA-approved food is in the thousands. Annual harm from FDA-approved drugs is in the millions. Annual deaths from FDA-approved drugs is over 200,000 (about half due to error; and half due to the inherent toxicity of FDA-approved drugs).

Annual harm and death from dietary supplements is not even 1% of the problem -- yet the FDA already spends well over 1% of its budget fighting dietary supplements. Are our tax dollars being correctly used for our protection, or is there some competing stakeholder interest here?

Harm and risk are relative things. Harmful in relation to what? This is the question that is seldom ever answered (and never answered by a fascist deception agency).

Ed

Post 18

Friday, February 29, 2008 - 2:51pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Excellent post Ed

Harm and risk are relative things. Harmful in relation to what? This is the question that is seldom ever answered (and never answered by a fascist deception agency).


Very true. The FDA has done some awful things including banning products that were of benefit such as ephedra for weightloss on shaky grounds that it causes heart attacks.

Although I think the FDA has little power over fraudulent claims, I think that's the purview of the FTC.

Post 19

Friday, February 29, 2008 - 5:49pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
John, I couldn't agree more.

And that part about the FDA, ephedra, and the FTC -- was 'right on the money', too.

;-)

Ed

Post to this threadPage 0Page 1Page 2Forward one pageLast Page


User ID Password or create a free account.