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Wednesday, March 26, 2008 - 10:39pmSanction this postReply
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I was watching the Dr. Phil show today, which included a segment on people who were unhappy with their racial appearance and wanted to change it.

At the beginning of the show, pictures of three different women -- one Asian, one black and one white -- were shown to several people who were asked who they thought was the most attractive.

The consensus seemed to be the white woman who was blonde. I thought the black woman was the most attractive, even though I generally prefer Asian women, which is not to say that I don't find women of other races attractive. One of the best looking women I ever met was a combination of Latin and Japanese -- just stunning. But in this case, I didn't find the Asian woman attractive at all, nor the blonde. But the white people, male and female, who were asked to rate them thought the blonde was the best looking. I didn't think so. I thought her mouth was too small and face too pinched to be attractive.

Anyway, one of the Asian woman on the show had her eyes altered to incorporate the fold of skin that Asians lack. As far as I was concerned, this cosmetic change made little difference in her appearance, but she felt it was important enough to undergo the risk of surgery.

There was also a Philippino woman who considered her nose too flat, and one of her relatives on the show was encouraging her to have it altered, but she decided against it. I thought she looked fine, and I'm not sure changing it would have improved her appearance; it might even have detracted from it in my judgment.

Then there was an Italian guy who felt the bridge of his noise was too big, and who was going to have it reduced. I don't know . . . I suppose if he wanted it done, fine. But I thought the prominence of his nose lent a certain distinctiveness -- a certain "character" -- to his appearance, which he would lose if he had it altered to look just average.

Awhile ago, I brought up the example of early English settlers in Africa who encountered an African tribe that had never seen whites before. The African men thought the English women unspeakably ugly. I raised this example to illustrate that beauty is in the eye of the beholder and that it is a socially based evaluation. Unfortunately, Erica thought that I had introduced the example, because I expected the African men to be attracted to the English women and was surprised they were not. She said that it was absurd for me to think that the African men would find the English women attractive. Actually I didn't think that at all, but I thought it was fascinating, if not entirely surprising, that they found them unspeakably ugly. As I said before, it makes sense though, because the English women would almost certainly have looked very strange to the African men.

Years ago, I worked briefly for an all-black company. I was the only white person in the building, so I got used to seeing nothing but black people everywhere I went. Well, at one point I walked into the restroom, saw myself in the mirror and jumped back with shock. I had expected to see another black person, and the person I saw in the mirror looked unexpectedly strange to me, even though I was seeing myself. It was a curious experience and one that I would never have expected had I not experienced it.

I think that what people find good looking is largely a matter of what they are accustomed to seeing within their respective societies, and I think that, as I noted earlier, the people considered the best looking in a given society are those that exhibit the least deviation from the social norm. If one takes a large number of different faces and performs a computer generated average of all of them, the resulting face will be considered beautiful by a person raised in that society.

Someone mentioned that symmetry is a key feature of beauty. It certainly seems to be a necessary condition for it, and maybe the computer-generated program was achieving that by blending the various faces into a single composite.

There was, of course, some objection on the Dr. Phil show to altering one's appearance, especially if it involved changing a distinctive racial feature. Michael Jackson comes to mind, but he was never mentioned. As I say, I didn't think it was much of an improvement, if any, for the Asian women to get the eye folds done, or for the Italian guy to have the bridge of his nose reduced, but if it made them feel better about their appearance, then what's there to object to? It also looked like the Asian woman had gotten breast implants, but nothing was said about that.

What do the rest of you think about plastic surgery, breast augmentation, lip augmentation, eye enhancements, nose jobs, face lifts, etc.? Is this narcissism run amuck, or a perfectly reasonable form of elective surgery? One woman I talked to -- an Objectivist -- viewed it as vain and unnatural.

- Bill
(Edited by William Dwyer on 3/26, 10:42pm)

(Edited by William Dwyer on 3/26, 10:47pm)


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Post 1

Thursday, March 27, 2008 - 4:22amSanction this postReply
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Is this narcissism run amuck, or a perfectly reasonable form of elective surgery? One woman I talked to -- an Objectivist -- viewed it as vain and unnatural.

What's wrong with vanity?  And how is it "unnatural?"  I would'a asked her that.

If you're able to see the television show "Extreme Makeover," you should watch it, Bill.  It's amazing, and the doctors make some incredible corrections to some terrible features.  The change in these people isn't "unnatural" at all. Just the opposite.


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Thursday, March 27, 2008 - 9:51amSanction this postReply
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Teresa,

She felt that people should be happy with their appearance just the way it is, unless there is some medical reason for changing it. For example, she said her daughter had her breasts reduced, because they were too large and posed a problem for her, but she didn't think that breast enhancement for cosmetic reasons was justified. Kind of reminds me of Christina Aquilera's "You are beautiful no matter what they say; you are beautiful in every single way."

- Bill

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Thursday, March 27, 2008 - 10:25amSanction this postReply
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"You are beautiful no matter what they say; you are beautiful in every single way."


No, ye not - just as ye can improve yer mind,  enhancing its wellbeing, so likewise the body, for the same aesthetic reasons, namely it is an application of ethics in the personal arena of integrating oneself of by and for oneself, as a self-made person.....


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Thursday, March 27, 2008 - 11:39amSanction this postReply
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I disagree that folks like folks who resemble a racial average.

Folks like folks who resemble themselves -- especially the area around the eyes (where you look at when you speak to them). They even get pets who resemble them in this area of the face. A cursory glance at celebrity couples reveals this notion to be something more than spurious.

I had once made some effort to catalogue those hollywood couples who resembled each other (in this facial area), and the list was literally head-turning. I wish I could remember more than the following example, but I regret that I cannot:

Take some time out of your day to examine the area around the eyes of Jennifer Anniston and Bradley Pitt.

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 3/27, 3:31pm)


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Thursday, March 27, 2008 - 12:20pmSanction this postReply
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Here's a link ...

Brennifer or Jennibrad (I forget which)

Ed
(Edited by Ed Thompson on 3/27, 3:30pm)


Post 6

Thursday, March 27, 2008 - 4:00pmSanction this postReply
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For example, she said her daughter had her breasts reduced, because they were too large and posed a problem for her, but she didn't think that breast enhancement for cosmetic reasons was justified. Kind of reminds me of Christina Aquilera's "You are beautiful no matter what they say; you are beautiful in every single way."

Yeah, yeah, I know the line. Blah blah. Why should people just accept what they have?  What's so great about that? If they're happy with what they have, great. If they aren't happy, and know why they aren't happy, then figure out a way to fix it, what's the big deal?

People create their own standard in their heads, so if the look doesn't fit the standard, and it's possible to create the standard surgically, I think people should go for it.

I think maybe your friend has bought into the idea that people are just too stupid and corrupt to know what should make them happy, and what shouldn't. 


Post 7

Thursday, March 27, 2008 - 4:18pmSanction this postReply
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I disagree that folks like folks who resemble a racial average.
A social average, not necessarily a racial average; in other words, an average within a given social group. This could be a racial average in a mono-racial society, but in a multi-racial society, it could easily be an inter-racial composite.
Folks like folks who resemble themselves -- especially the area around the eyes (where you look at when you speak to them). They even get pets who resemble them in this area of the face. A cursory glance at celebrity couples reveals this notion to be something more than spurious.
There are many different things that go into personal attraction besides physical beauty. I was referring only to what is considered physically beautiful, not what physical features will always be the basis for a romantic relationship. Moreover, the fact that most people in a given society find a certain type physically beautiful does not mean that their partners will necessarily be physically beautiful. There are not enough beautiful people to make that even a remote possibility.

Like it or not, the composite theory of beauty has strong empirical support. That doesn't mean that in a given society a certain type of physical appearance will receive unanimous support. I disagreed with most of the people on the show about which woman was the best looking, and my preferences have changed over the years, but I have noticed that the change is often correlated with the women I'm most associated with.

-Bill




Post 8

Thursday, March 27, 2008 - 4:38pmSanction this postReply
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Bill,

Like it or not, the composite theory of beauty has strong empirical support.
Are you denying that close-up pictures of you appear Asian?

;-)

Ed
[has viewed such a thing]


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