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Sunday, December 7, 2008 - 8:02pmSanction this postReply
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Curious: How does Objectivism handle the very real problem of diseases and disabilities?

How would an Objectivist treat a mentally retarded person? How would an Objectivist react to a diagnosis of cancer or Lou Gehrig's disease? How would an Objectivist care for a child with autism, muscular dystrophy, or cerebral palsy, or would they even make an attempt to do so at all? Randianism seems to put a huge emphasis on productivity and perfection in body and mind. What happens when this perfection, of no fault of the person involved, breaks down? Illness is not always a sign of weakness; Stephen Hawking is an undisputed genius, and Ayn Rand herself seems to have died of something at some point. Is there anything in Objectivism that allows for such accidents of nature, or does Objectivism believe firmly that there is "life unworthy of life"?

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Post 1

Monday, December 8, 2008 - 3:07amSanction this postReply
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Hi, Mimi-

The way these questions are presented assumes we are all responsible for the afflictions others may have.

My answers in order of the questions asked:

1)  With the same respect as any other human being.
2) Same as #1
3) To the best of my ability.

Randianism seems to put a huge emphasis on productivity and perfection in body and mind.
That's true.  Is that wrong somehow? Why? 

4) That depends on the individual, and those who love them. What do you suppose should happen to them?

Illness is not always a sign of weakness; Stephen Hawking is an undisputed genius,

Some here would argue with that.  Not every affliction is beyond an individual's control, as this statement implies.

 and Ayn Rand herself seems to have died of something at some point. Is there anything in Objectivism that allows for such accidents of nature, or does Objectivism believe firmly that there is "life unworthy of life"?
What do you mean by "allows for such accidents of nature?"   I have no power over what happens to other people. Are you saying we do have some kind of power over the conditions of others?

"Life unworthy of life" needs elaboration. What do you mean?  Specifics are important.

You should expect many responses. :) 

By the way, there's no such thing as "Randianism."  I personally find the term insulting, and so did Rand.



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Post 2

Monday, December 8, 2008 - 10:00amSanction this postReply
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Welcome, Mimi. Please fill out your extended profile so we know some of your background, especially what you have already read. You don't have to answer any specific questions if you don't wish to.

Objectivism is not a form of elitism or supremacism. Objectivism teaches that each individual's happiness is his highest moral purpose. That applies for everyone. Health and productivity are good because they are conducive to a happy, well-lived life.

Teresa has addressed your questions from an individual basis. There does seem to be an implied question in your post as to what one does about other people who may be sick or disabled.

Objectivism holds that ultimately, each individual should be responsible for his own welfare, and that no person has a duty to be responsible for the welfare of another. There is an important qualification.

Children do not chose to be born.

They are the responsibility of their parents until they can become responsible for themselves. The responsibility for a sick or disabled child is with that child's parents. And a parent must be aware that if he has a disabled child, that child may become a burden for life, if the child will not ever become self-supporting. Parenthood is a great responsibility, but it is a chosen one.

There will be children who will need support, but they may have parents who die before they do, or who cannot support them due to no fault of the child's. This is unfortunate, but true. It does not, however, place an obligation on others who did not choose this responsibility. In most cases, charitable people can and will step up and help these unfortunates. They do so because of the joy such charitable action brings them.

Charity should always be a chosen joy, not a form of unwanted slavery.

What is the worst scenario? People will suffer and die due to bad luck. But this is simply a fact of existence. Objectivism can no more stop such matters than can wishing or the welfare state stop floods and fires and earthquakes and plagues. Everyone is going to die. Everyone will be ill. Everyone will suffer to some extent. This is a fact of life, but it is a minor fact of life. Most people are healthy. Most people are happy. Most of life is not a disaster.

Finally, Objectivism can proudly point to the fact that it is in free, capitalist, and individualist states where the unfortunate are the best off. Look at the communist countries whose explicit rationale is the good of the many. Do the poor flock to Cuba or North Korea because the people who live their eat so well? When there is a hurricane in the Gulf, on average, how many thousands of people die in Haiti for every person who dies in the US? Did millions of people in the last century starve to death in the capitalist states of the west, or in communist China and the Soviet Union? where are people starving to death now?

No one starves to death in the US.

The average poor person in the US has not only running water, food, and electricity, he also has two color TV's, cable, a DVD player, a microwave, an air-conditioner, video-games and a car.

Most Objectivists are not mean. Most people on this list probably have and help friends and family who have health issues or who are disabled. Most of us have probably engaged in charitable deeds - because we want to. Some Objectivists couldn't care less. If that makes them happy, that's fine, and none of us is going to hold a gun to their heads to force them to do otherwise. And neither will they prevent us our you or anyone else from helping anyone who could use some freely given care.

(Edited by Ted Keer on 12/08, 9:12pm)


Post 3

Monday, December 8, 2008 - 11:30amSanction this postReply
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Very well said, Ted.

Mimi, I don't know of any calls for "perfection in body and mind." Objectivism celebrates the joy's inherent in having a mind and a body - and recognizes that our mind, in particular, is our means to success.

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Post 4

Monday, December 8, 2008 - 12:07pmSanction this postReply
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Once at NBI someone asked Branden what the Objectivist view of death is.  He replied "we believe it is best avoided whenever possible."

Post 5

Tuesday, December 9, 2008 - 8:24amSanction this postReply
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Above Objectivists comments are excellent. I always love to see how well imbued in the principles of Objectivism these people are!

Mrs. Pickwick: From "The Objectivist Newsletter" (January, 1963): Once, when Barbara Branden (an early collaborator of Ayn Rand) was asked by a student: "What will happen to the poor in an Objectivist society?" - she answered: "If you want to help them, you will not be stopped." This is the essence of the whole issue, whether we speak of poor people, sick people or disabled people. In an Objectivist society people will, by the essence of the system first and automatically as years go by, LEARN to be responsible for what they do. They will be responsible for themselves, for their children and for those they love. How? It is quite possible - and has, of course, often happened - that a disabled person looses, in the course of his life, his parents or family members that took care of him. But much, much earlier, Objectivism will have taken the necessary steps to cover these unavoidable eventualities. Again: how? In an Objectivist society (I wrote on the subject in a book of mine which was published chapterwise in Rebirth of Reason (see "Ayn Rand, I and the Universe")) insurance companies will have a much bigger saying that today. Why? Because they are - quite separate from any possible charitable institution - since they were first created (quite some time ago already) responsible for possible damages (transport, house, accidents, etc.) as long as you sign a contract with them. Businessmen do this continuously and we all do so as well (as a matter of fact, insurance people are constantly on our neck to expand a given contract, sign a new one for a new risk, etc. etc.). So, we can just as well sign one for disability (Why, Marlene Dietrich even signed one to insure her fabulous legs and I could mention dozens of similar cases!). So, since in an Objectivist society parents will be responsible for themselves and their life and all that this implies, they will always have a chance to contract an insurance for a possible disability of the children... or of themselves. You see, in an Objectivist society ALL creative possibilities are open, signify money and profit for the company involved and, since all will operate in an environment of personal freedom, you will be even able to change your insurance company if you're not satisfied with the one with which you signed your original contract (and not as today in Europe and other areas, where the State simply takes away part of your money to cover things like Medicare, etc. that most of the time don't work so that you have to spend more extra money to obtain the required medical services from private doctors and hospital institutions!). What will NOT be allowed, NOT because there will be a specific law but because the whole system makes such a possibility impossible, is for loafers to live at the expense of peaceful, productive citizens. So, if there's by chance a drug addict getting sick, he will have to face the outcome all by himself. And should he hurt somebody else, well, he will be punished in accordance with the principal MORAL axiom of Objectivism: Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, has a right to INITIATE an act of violence against another person or persons. SELF-RESPONSIBILITY is the automatic outcome of the Objectivist society, and not, as happens in all the socialist societies of all type, kind and color that populate the world, living from what others produce!

(Edited by Manfred F. Schieder on 12/09, 8:25am)


Post 6

Tuesday, December 9, 2008 - 11:45amSanction this postReply
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Great, clear post, Ted!

jt

Post 7

Tuesday, December 9, 2008 - 3:01pmSanction this postReply
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Welcome, Mimi!

You seem to be concerned about folks being "too selfish" -- running roughshod over others to get their short-term, narrow-range interests (their immediately-felt desires) satisfied. Is that the case?

There is this view of "man" that he is a wretched animal and that man needs either a supernatural code of morality (from religion) or he needs a code involving meeting the needs of everyone else (in society), especially before he meets his own needs -- because, being wretched and getting his needs met, he would not then lift a finger for another. In both cases, sacrifice is asked of the individual in order to achieve a "greater good" (either "God's will" or the "public interest").

Do you take this view of man as a wretched animal? If so, do you go on to see man's salvation in serving "God" or in serving "society"?

You don't have to answer all of these questions here, but I hope you think about them (and I hope you have more questions of your own).

Ed


Post 8

Tuesday, December 9, 2008 - 4:01pmSanction this postReply
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This view of 'man as a wretched animal' is such a farce - really - if such were the case, there would never have risen civilization... indeed, probably nothing to the caves, let alone beyond them... biologically it is idiocy...

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Post 9

Tuesday, December 9, 2008 - 7:31pmSanction this postReply
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Rev',

I understand why this view of man makes you frustrated enough to attack it so. However, I don't think that you're being helpful here and now -- because Mimi is unlikely to feel as comfortable asking more questions if she was holding that view before you called it "idiocy."

I'm not selling out, but picking my battles -- and picking an armory appropriate to the battle. Mimi came on here with questions about Objectivism in our Objectivism Q & A forum. It'd be good to get her responses before attacking views she may hold. I understand that she may or may not hold them, and that it may or may not matter, but I hope you haven't scared her away too soon.

Ed


Post 10

Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 11:14amSanction this postReply
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Ted,

They are the responsibility of their parents until they can become responsible for themselves. The responsibility for a sick or disabled child is with that child's parents. And a parent must be aware that if he has a disabled child, that child may become a burden for life, if the child will not ever become self-supporting. Parenthood is a great responsibility, but it is a chosen one.

There will be children who will need support, but they may have parents who die before they do, or who cannot support them due to no fault of the child's. This is unfortunate, but true. It does not, however, place an obligation on others who did not choose this responsibility. In most cases, charitable people can and will step up and help these unfortunates.
In Minnesota we have a law where folks can unload the responsibility of caring for their children at anytime. They just drop their kid(s) off at the hospital and leave, no strings attached. Listening to the radio this morning, I heard about another parent who had just did this.

One thing I don't like about that law is that it reduces individual responsibility. Another thing I don't like about that law is that it leads to unchosen obligations. Would anyone care to comment on this law?

Ed


Post 11

Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 11:52amSanction this postReply
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They should ship all the non-indigenous peoples in Minnesota to France, and let the Plains Indians do as they wish with that frozen waste. Use the territory as a nuclear waste depository, leper colony and garbage dump. Pay Canada to annex it. Socialist Minnesota has a record of more than a century of Progressive Protestant Mondale madness.

"Feeling Minnesota."

What more comment is necessary?



Post 12

Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 3:53pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Ed,

I think it's better to have parents leave their unwanted kids at the hospital than in the dumpster or submerged in bathwater. You *could* look at dumping a kid as shirking personal responsibility, but I'd rather see it as an individual acting responsibly in acknowledging that he or she is not ready for parenting.

So if the hospitals or fire stations are willing to provide this sort of program, then great!

However, I think this program should be restricted to dumping just very young kids, i.e., don't leave your obnoxious teenager at the hospital. I would also want some information on the parents (for health purposes), which would be kept highly confidential, as well as the birth date of the child (for birthday party and identity purposes).

Jordan

Post 13

Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 6:18pmSanction this postReply
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Ted,
Ouch.  About 1 out of 100 Minnesotan's have Erickson as their last name.  Think they're homesick for Sweden?

http://www.hbci.com/~tgort/might_be.htm


Post 14

Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 4:42amSanction this postReply
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Jordan,

I like Ted's answer better.

:-)

That's not to say that you didn't bring up good points, it's just that Ted's answer is more holistic. There are at least three things to think about and integrate:

1) kid's lives
2) individual responsibility
3) unchosen obligations

If you're not thinking about and integrating at least these three things, you're not getting down to the root answer.

You make a good point that it's better to not kill kids. In fact, we should make that one a rule. No one gets to kill their kids. However, after (and before) that, we have to address the other two things. The conventional process of adoption covers the other two things. The Minnesota law circumvents the requirement (responsibility) of the parent to go through the conventional process. It shifts the burden onto health care workers to complete that process for the parent(s), the folks who chose to have a kid in the first place.

Imagine if we all believed that having these kids wasn't our choice.

You bring up another good point about the age of the child. I'm not sure how old they've gotten (I think I remember hearing on the radio that a teenager was dropped off!). Imagine going through a decade of life and then being "unloaded" at the hospital by your parent(s). That's it? Just like that? No explanation? Unfortunately, you don't get to pick your parents (i.e., you don't get to pick "good" ones).

I say that all kids have to grow up to forgive the imperfections of their parents, as part of their own psychological health. They don't have to forget, but to forgive. If you don't believe me, try living a life of resentment and check back with me on that. I can't imagine the kind of forgiveness required to forgive a parent that basically dumped you off, not even onto someone else -- but onto a nameless, faceless institution that wasn't built for that purpose (like an adoption agency is).

Ed
(Edited by Ed Thompson on 12/11, 4:51am)


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Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 10:16amSanction this postReply
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Hi Ed,

Where is Ted's response? Thanks for the follow-up regarding my last post.

Cheers,
Jordan

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Post 16

Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 2:44pmSanction this postReply
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The one with the big red map of the USA.

Post 17

Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 4:21pmSanction this postReply
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Ted's response was in Ted's post #2. I got confused since Ed asked his question after Ted already "answered" it.

I pretty much agree with what Ted said, except I think there're acceptable ways out of parenthood aside from waiting for the kids to take care of themselves. In an ethical free market, most responsibilities are alienable.

Jordan

Post 18

Friday, December 12, 2008 - 9:18amSanction this postReply
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Wasn't Minnesota looking at fixing the law?  There are laws like this to stop dumpster babies, but they apply only to newborns or very close.  I think they forgot to put an age on their law, and were shocked when people did this with 9yos and such!

Post 19

Friday, December 12, 2008 - 9:44amSanction this postReply
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You're thinking of Nebraska, and they were actually dumping kids as old as 17!

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