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Post 0

Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - 2:39pmSanction this postReply
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Ayn Rand was very clear in stating that she was opposed to engaging in war unless it was an issue of self-defense. But there are quotes of hers showing that she opposed attempts to manipulate the public into entering WWII. And she supported the "isolationist" view of that time - regarding WWII.

Here is my question: Did she make a statement following the attack on Pearl Harbor indicating that we should be at war because it had become a case of self-defense.

(a question has been asked on a talk page of the Wikipedia article on her and I would like to find a citation of her position on WWII post Pearl Harbor).

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Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - 2:52pmSanction this postReply
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Never heard of such a statement.  She wasn't politically active then; the Willkie campaign was more than a year in the past, and she was deep in preparations for The Fountainhead.  Once at an ARI event I asked the broader question about her opinion on entry into the war.  Britting mentioned as much as you already have but said nothing about the present question.  Thus we can safely infer that she didn't talk about it publicly.

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Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - 2:56pmSanction this postReply
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Steve, yes, the quote to which I referred in the article but did not give verbatim is cited there by page and was in her Journals. She said we have to have a cause, such as Pearl Harbor. I don't have the book on me now, it's in storage.
(Edited by Ted Keer on 12/30, 2:57pm)


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Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - 3:04pmSanction this postReply
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To get picky, this might be just an example of a cause that gets people aroused, not an endorsement.  I have the same excuse for not citing the text, but if anyone has it I'd be interested in seeing it.

Post 4

Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - 3:46pmSanction this postReply
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The only thing I could find in “The Objectivism Research CD-ROM” is from Chapter 14 of The Ominous Parallels:

Once again, a period of rising statism in the West was climaxed by a world war. Once again, the American public, which was strongly "isolationist," was manipulated by a pro-war administration into joining an "idealistic" crusade. (On November 27, 1941, ten days before Pearl Harbor, writes John T. Flynn, "the President told Secretary Stimson, who wrote it in his diary, that our course was to maneuver the Japanese into attacking us. This would put us into the war and solve his problem.")

I didn't find anything in her Journals that seemed relevant.

Thanks,

Glenn


Post 5

Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - 3:48pmSanction this postReply
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Look here:

Rand, Ayn. Journals of Ayn Rand. Dutton (1997). Edited by David Harriman. p.315.



Post 6

Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - 3:52pmSanction this postReply
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4: Claims like this, accurate or not, didn't get abroad until after the war (you think a cabinet secretary publishes his diary during wartime?).  On the other hand, Rand read and endorsed Peikoff's book, so she would seem to agree with him.  This is still a long way from a public endorsement or condemnation of the war effort at the time.

5: Could you give us the quote?

(Edited by Peter Reidy on 12/30, 3:55pm)


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Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - 4:51pmSanction this postReply
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Ted,

I have the 1999 Plume addition of "Journals of Ayn Rand" - she writes about war, specifically WWII, on that page, but no mention of self-defense or Pearl Harbor or being attacked - nothing in this are that is specific.
--------

Peter,

There are a number of quotes where she speaks about FDR and his policies - some of the quotes could be interpreted to mean she opposed our getting into WWII - and she may have - before Pearl Harbor. But I'm certain she would not have advocated not going to war in response. But I can't find a quote to offset those that exist that indicate otherwise. This all started in response to an anti-ARI, but pro-Rand site's article.

Here is the fellow's question I am trying to answer by finding a valid quote: Having just been through the ARI reference [he means the ARI-Watch] in detail it ends with the statement "It is abundantly clear to the sincere reader that Ayn Rand was against America entering WW II." How is this compatible with the statement in the article that "she approved American action when strictly justified in response to an attack"/ Would someone elaborate?
---------

Glenn,

Thanks for doing that CD search.

Post 8

Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - 5:21pmSanction this postReply
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Okay, Steve. But I did come across something relevant. There were a few pages in the index. I assume that page is where she says that we must clearly state our purposes for war, then?

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Post 9

Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - 5:29pmSanction this postReply
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Rand's anti-interventionist statements date from before Pearl Harbor, so if she approved of going to war after the attack (and we haven't documented that she did) that wouldn't be a contradiction.  To say "the information available during the 1940 election season doesn't justify intervention" is altogether consistent with saying "the information available after the attack does."

I suspect that the questioner isn't familiar with that part of American history, thinking that the war started, and that Americans first knew about it, with Pearl Harbor (when in fact it had been going on in Europe for over 2 years) and that he doesn't realize that it was politically controversial before that.  Given these false assumptions one would infer that all anti-interventionist statements came after the attack.


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Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - 6:10pmSanction this postReply
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Peter, I agree with the understanding of Rand's position as you described it and with your understanding of that 2 year period where Europe was at war and there was a political battle going on in the states about joining them or not.

But I can't find any statement from Rand to confirm the post Pearl Harbor period - I'm sure that at some point she was questioned (in the 60's or 70's) about this and replied. Or that she used Pearl Harbor as an example of when it is proper to go to war.

Post 11

Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - 6:22pmSanction this postReply
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The Peikoff statement quoted in #4 would seem to suggest that she didn't, since she endorsed the book and by accounts was virtually the co-author.  NBI Book Service used to sell Perpetual War for Perpetual Peace, ed. Harry Elmer Barnes, which pushed the Roosevelt-knew theory and which may have been Peikoff's source.

I've long suspected that Rand was uncomfortable with the entire topic of international relations, in a conflict between her non-interventionist head and her liberationist heart, and that this is why she had so little to say on the subject.


Post 12

Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - 6:44pmSanction this postReply
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Peter, even if she agreed with the view that Americans were manipulated into the war, and even if she believed that FDR knew of the Pearl Harbor attack in advance and did nothing in order to ensure we went to war, it still doesn't change anything. The Japanese did attack and some kind of response was needed and I can't see her wanting anything less than going to war (no matter how angry she would have been at FDR). Some of those quotes on the ARI-Watch site are slightly out of context - some were about FDR as an statist - domestically, and some were dealing with economics and the myth that WWII ended the depression.

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Post 13

Wednesday, December 31, 2008 - 3:05amSanction this postReply
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1944

 

1975


Post 14

Wednesday, December 31, 2008 - 7:26amSanction this postReply
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#12 is a plausible inference, but to answer the original question: as far as any of us knows she never said this on record.

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Post 15

Friday, January 2, 2009 - 4:36pmSanction this postReply
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For a moment let’s set aside what Ayn Rand thought about entering the war against Germany and Japan, and consider another question: Was America better off for FDR having entered the war? Was entering it in America’s interest, as opposed to FDR’s?
  
We’ve all been persuaded – indoctrinated and seduced really – by years of schooling, and from watching Hollywood propaganda films (dramas, comedies, musicals) produced during the 1940s and afterwards, television later giving them a perpetual lease on life, into replying with an unquestioning: YES !
  
We all grew up under that cloud of propaganda. I, like about everyone, took the traditional account of WWII for granted. Then as an adult, out of school, after much reading, slowly and by degrees, I came around to — Ayn Rand’s position. I came around long before I knew it was her position.
   
Now the history of WWII is a huge subject and I’m not going to address here the question I began with – which question amounts to: Was Ayn Rand correct? I bring the question up only because some of you probably think along the following lines: ‘‘No rational person could have opposed U.S. entry into WWII. It simply can’t be true that Ayn Rand opposed it. There must be a catch somewhere.’’ I appreciate that sentiment because once it would have been mine.
  
That sentiment may be behind Steve’s writing: ‘‘... I’m certain she would not have advocated not going to war in response [to Pearl Harbor]’’ and ‘‘... I can’t see her wanting anything less than going to war ...’’ even as he acknowledges: ‘‘I can’t find a quote to offset those that exist that indicate otherwise.’’ Indeed it looks like a dilemma, until you realize that Ayn Rand may actually have been right on this subject.
  
To discover background about WWII you weren’t given in school or old movies, knowledge that may eventually bring you around to Ayn Rand’s point of view, see the links under
World War II. (Ayn Rand cited four – one is under World War I – of the listed books favorably, as indicated, three more are by or contain material by the same authors.  At first skip the links labeled ‘‘Amazon reviews’’ – they’re slow, and not always informative though the books themselves are. Regarding the links in general, see the disclaimer at the top of the page.) Your research isn’t an afternoon project, and you won’t change your mind overnight. But the more you read the worse WWII gets – both as to how the U.S. entered it, how it was prosecuted, and its consequences.
  
To repeat, the point of mentioning the actual history is to suggest that Ayn Rand’s position is reasonable and very possibly correct – it’s certainly not crazy. With that in mind let’s get back to the question at hand, a merely textural one:
Did Ayn Rand make any statement approving FDR’s war against Germany and Japan? (FDR entered the war before he declared it, remember, with blockades against Japan and air assaults on the Japanese in China.)
Just to be clear, the question is not ‘‘Ought she to have approved?’’ (though I maintain the answer to that is No). Nor is it ‘‘Did Nazi Germany have a right to be left alone by free countries?’’ (No). Nor is it ‘‘Should free people have remained silent about the Nazis’’ (again No). The question is ‘‘Did she ever approve of FDR getting the U.S. into the war? – as evidenced by her explicit statement.’’
  
Contributors here have made some interesting points about this and I’d like to comment on some of them.
  
A couple of posts have suggested that we’ll find an endorsement of the war, or at any rate something positive, in the Journals. If anyone finds a positive statement in the Journals by all means post it here (include the page location so it can be easily verified). I don’t recall reading anything like an endorsement in the Journals, and the same goes for the Letters.
  
Such an endorsement would be hard to explain given Ayn Rand’s many published statements that explicitly lament entry into World War II. And how could ‘not-A’ offset ‘A’ ?
  
Speaking of Wendell Willkie, during his campaign for president in 1940 he opposed entry into the war, at least initially. Ayn Rand worked for Willkie’s campaign and consequently, considering the importance of the war question, almost certainly agreed with that position. This of course was before Pearl Harbor. [0]
  
Peter maintains that ‘‘Rand’s anti-interventionist statements date from before Pearl Harbor ...’’ and goes on to say that her opinion afterwards is another story. Comment: All the anti-interventionist statements quoted in

Ayn Rand on World War II were made after Pearl Harbor.
  
Later you (Peter) suggest that ‘‘Rand was uncomfortable with the entire topic of international relations’’ and that there was ‘‘a conflict between her non-interventionist head and her liberationist heart, and ... this is why she had so little to say on the subject.’’ Comment: On the subject of entry into WWII alone she wrote over 760 words, in four different essays, not counting
The Ominous Parallels or two favorable book reviews in The Objectivist Newsletter. Whether you call that a fair amount of writing or quite a lot is a question of comparison. And in her WWII writing she had no ‘‘liberationist heart,’’ no conflict. [*]
  
I agree, however, that her treatment of foreign policy is generally weak, especially her writing on the Vietnam War, which at times is – I hate to say it – exasperatingly inconsistent. [**]
  
Steve says  ‘‘Some of those quotes on the ARI-Watch site are slightly out of context – some were about FDR as a statist ... domestically, and some were dealing with economics and the myth that WWII ended the depression.’’ Comment: I don’t think the quotes on ARI-Watch are out of context, even slightly. It’s true of course that Ayn Rand despised FDR’s statism and the fact that he used WWII to advance that agenda.
  
Perhaps you (Steve) are suggesting the following: Suppose there had been another president besides FDR, one who had no statist agenda.
Then she would have approved a declaration of war, even if there had been no Pearl Harbor without FDR’s machinations. That of course doesn’t address the original question; after all there is only one world and FDR was in it. Taking the supposition as it is, I would argue that she still would have opposed the war because it simply wasn’t in America’s interest. But let’s stick to your original question, it is objective and easy to answer.
  
Stephen furnishes two links, without comment. The first goes to a
Reader’s Digest article of Ayn Rand’s entitled ‘‘The Only Path To Tomorrow’’ dated January 1944, two years after FDR entered the war. Conspicuous by its absence in that article is anything supporting the war. (That there’s nothing directly opposing the war is to be expected, it’s safe to say Reader’s Digest would not have published the article otherwise. I emphasize ‘‘directly’’ because the essay is an intellectual attack on big government – totalitarianism – which the war saddled Americans with to an unprecedented degree, ‘‘temporary’’ measures many of which became permanent.)
  
The second of Stephen’s links goes to a page of an RoR discussion dated about a year ago entitled: ‘‘Foreign Policy and Self-Defense: Bidinotto’s Facts.’’ Stephen there wrote: ‘‘... I had always remembered Rand’s discussion of active man v. passive man in that
Reader’s Digest piece as applauding the active man for his contribution to the war, specifically to the liberation of Europe.’’ Comment: This is, as I gather you (Stephen) came to realize, a misremembrance. It’s totally mistaken.
   
Later in the discussion you quote Ayn Rand about helping Vietnam and some other countries. She’s for it! Yet elsewhere, in her writing and in answers to questions after talks, she says she opposed the Vietnam War. As mentioned above, she wasn’t always able to clearly articulate a position on Vietnam. As for the other countries she mentions, apparently she believed the propaganda about benevolent Israel, which at the time or soon after was a conduit for military technical assistance and intelligence to the USSR. [***] She was naively mistaken about Taiwan as well. It’s an oppressive country, there’s even some evidence its government agents once assassinated, on U.S. soil, some Taiwanese intellectually fighting that oppression. Yes, there is Taiwanese ‘‘capitalism’’ of a sort, but the same can be said of its enemy China. Why must you risk your life or become the least bit out of pocket in order to save Chiang Kai-shek, or whomever the Taiwan strongman is now? Ayn Rand was mistaken here perhaps because she subscribed – if she did – to the now discredited Southeast Asia ‘‘Domino Theory.’’ Ayn Rand was neither omniscient nor infallible. [****] RoR posters John Trager and Michael E. Marotta make some good points in the discussion.
  
Steve had asked: ‘‘Did [Ayn Rand] make a statement following the attack on Pearl Harbor indicating that we should be at war because it had become a case of self-defense?’’ Peter sums things up nicely: ‘‘... to answer the original question: as far as any of us knows she never said this on record.’’

   
And in fact she said just the opposite.
  
Ayn Rand on World War II has been up for somewhat over three years now and no one has successfully challenged the accuracy of its quotes. No published work of Ayn Rand exists repudiating those quotes. Still, many people challenge the article’s conclusion. Some of these people do so sincerely, such as Steve who is obviously concerned about finding the truth (indeed so far everyone here it looks like). But to challenge the article’s conclusion successfully critics must discover a heretofore unpublished Ayn Rand manuscript containing something along the lines of: ‘‘I repudiate my past comments about WWII. FDR was right to have entered it. All those draftees (there’s no question a draft was required, even after the Pearl Harbor con), I mean, it was indeed the greatest generation.’’

Mark
ARIwatch.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
0   See Presidential Elections – Ayn Rand & ARI
 for a run down of Ayn Rand’s positions.
  
*  ‘‘Liberationist’’ suggests that the U.S. won the war for Europe. Yet by the belated time the U.S. entered the war – which was after Germany invaded Russia – Hitler was already doomed. The main thing U.S. entry accomplished in Europe was to deliver the eastern half to Stalin.
  
**  That is, within itself, even if she’d written nothing else. I suspect one reason was that the Leftists of the day muddied the waters of discourse. They opposed the war by supporting the Vietcong (the enemy), others wishing to articulate their opposition to the war had to take care not to be associated with those ideas.
  
***  Perhaps it’s worth noting that Leonard Peikoff was her editor by the time she wrote the article from which Stephen quotes (‘‘The Lessons of Vietnam’’ Ayn Rand Letter, 1975). If you trust research from Mr. Peikoff about current events, what can you expect? (This of course is only a suspicion regarding the Vietnam article.)
  
****  That doesn’t mean you can pick and choose to suit yourself, but it does mean you must do your own thinking. What are the facts and, setting aside Ayn Rand the person, what does Objectivism have to say about them?



Post 16

Friday, January 2, 2009 - 5:53pmSanction this postReply
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"Ayn Rand on World War II"

It may be up but the page doesn't load.

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Friday, January 2, 2009 - 6:18pmSanction this postReply
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Popped right up for me:

<< ARI Watch


Ayn Rand on WW II 
Again and again ARI compares America’s entry into World War II with the invasion of Iraq, and looks to FDR’s generals during World War II for inspiration in conducting the Iraq war. What did Ayn Rand herself think about America’s involvement in WW II? And for that matter WW I – she lived through both of them. From “The Roots of War” in The Objectivist June 1966 (the bracketed text is an exact quote from the essay):
“Just as [Woodrow] Wilson ... led the United States into World War I, ‘to make the world safe for democracy’ – so Franklin D. Roosevelt ... led it into World War II, in the name of the ‘Four Freedoms.’ ... In the case of World War II, [those overwhelmingly opposed to war ... were silenced and] smeared as ‘isolationists,’ ‘reactionaries,’ and ‘American-First’ers.’ ”
Obviously Ayn Rand was sympathetic to the American-First’ers. I’m going to tweeze this apart though, just to be sure.
The operative word here is “smear.” People with whom you agree do not smear – that is, you do not believe they do – they point out facts. Obviously Ayn Rand is criticizing those doing the smearing. She wouldn’t have used the word “smear” if she weren’t sympathetic to those “overwhelmingly opposed to war.” “Silenced” is another key word. It disparages those doing the silencing. She did not say “properly silenced,” which would have taken the sting out of it. Note that Ayn Rand sees U.S. entry into WW II as equivalent to that of its entry into WW I. One was as bad as the other. Ayn Rand continues:
“World War I led, not to [Wilson’s] ‘democracy,’ but to the creation of three dictatorships: Soviet Russia, Fascist Italy, Nazi Germany. World War II led, not to [Roosevelt’s] ‘Four Freedoms,’ but to the surrender of one-third of the world’s population into communist slavery.”
After saying that World War II did not lead to Roosevelt’s ‘Four Freedoms’ she mentions disaster. She contrasts Roosevelt’s promises with what we actually got. Clearly she thinks Roosevelt helped bring about the disaster.
From “The Wreckage of the Consensus” in The Objectivist, April & May 1967:
“The same groups that coined the term ‘isolationist’ in World War II – to designate anyone who held that the internal affairs of other countries are not the responsibility of the United States – these same groups are screaming that the United States has no right to interfere in the internal affairs of Vietnam. 
Ayn Rand’s main point here is that these groups are inconsistent (the first time against isolationism, the second time for it), but again it is easy to infer that she was sympathetic to the isolationists regarding World War II.
This is clearer in “The Lessons of Vietnam” (The Ayn Rand Letter, Aug. & Sept. 1974) where she refers to:
“The same intellectual groups ... who coined that anti-concept [“ ‘isolationism.’ ”] in World War II – and used it to denounce any patriotic opponent of America’s self-immolation – the same groups who screamed that it was our duty to save the world (when the enemy was Germany or Italy or fascism) ...”
and again goes on to say they are now against (rather than for) the Vietnam War. [footnote 1]
Ayn Rand writes about WW I in her essay “The Intellectual Bankruptcy of Our Age” (the book she quotes from is Arthur Ekirch’s The Decline of American Liberalism):
“If you have accepted the Marxist doctrine that capitalism leads to wars, read Professor Ekirch’s account of how Woodrow Wilson, the ‘liberal’ reformer, pushed the United States into World War I.  ‘ He seemed to feel that the United States had a mission to spread its institutions – which he conceived as liberal and democratic – to the more benighted areas of the world. ’  It was not the ‘selfish capitalists,’ or the ‘tycoons of big business,’ or the ‘greedy munitions-makers’ who helped Wilson to whip up a reluctant, peace-loving nation into the hysteria of a military crusade – it was the altruistic ‘liberals’ of the magazine The New Republic ...”
The New Republic has been consistent over the years: yesterday it was “liberal,’ today it is “neoconservative.” In 1914 liberals whipped up Americans for the “Great War,” today neocons, and ARI, whip up Americans for a military crusade in the Middle East. Back to “The Roots of War.” She suggests that statism (domestic war) and militarism (foreign war) naturally go together:
“Observe the link between statism and militarism in the intellectual history of the 19th and 20th centuries. Just as the destruction of capitalism and the rise of the totalitarian state were not caused by business or labor or any economic interests, but by the dominant statist ideology of the intellectuals – so the resurgence of the doctrine of military conquest and armed crusades for political ‘ideals’ were the product of the same intellectuals’ belief that ‘the good’ is to be achieved by force.”
She goes on to say that the “rise of a spirit of nationalistic imperialism in the United States did not come from the right, but from the left ... .” That was true in her day, but today the resurgence of nationalistic imperialism comes from the right. (There never was much difference between left and right, and most neoconservatives are in fact former leftists; when it comes to fundamentals they still are.) After elaborating, Ayn Rand makes the same point she had made in “The Intellectual Bankruptcy of Our Age,” again quoting Prof. Ekirch’s book:
“In regard to Woodrow Wilson, Professor Ekirch writes:  ‘Wilson no doubt would have preferred the growth of United States foreign trade to come about as a result of free international competition, but he found it easy with his ideas of moralism and duty to rationalize direct American intervention as a means of safeguarding the national interest.’ ... And:  ‘He seemed to feel that the United States had a mission to spread its institutions – which he conceived as liberal and democratic – to the more benighted areas of the world.’ ... It was not the advocates of capitalism who helped Wilson to whip up a reluctant, peace-loving nation into the hysteria of a military crusade – it was the ‘liberal’ magazine The New Republic.”
From “Moral Inflation” The Ayn Rand Letter March 1974:
“There still are people in this country who lost loved ones in World War I. There are more people who carry the unhealed wounds of World War II, of Korea, of Vietnam. There are the disabled, the crippled, the mangled of those wars’ battlefields. No one has ever told them why they had to fight nor what their sacrifices accomplished; it was certainly not ‘to make the world safe for democracy’ – look at that world now. The American people have borne it all, trusting their leaders, hoping that someone knew the purpose of that ghastly devastation. The United States gained nothing from those wars, except the growing burden of paying reparations to the whole world ... .”
When she writes:  “No one has ever told them why they had to fight ...”  clearly she means that the reasons politicians and intellectuals did tell them were wrong, that there was no valid reason for them to fight in those wars.
Ayn Rand was closely associated with NBI during its existence. In the early 1960s NBI Book Service sold Perpetual War for Perpetual Peace, an anthology edited by Harry Elmer Barnes and published by Caxton Press, a division of Caxton Printers. Subtitled “a critical examination of the foreign policy of Franklin Delano Roosevelt and its aftermath,” the book argues that participation in the war was unnecessary and indeed bad for America. Before she died Ayn Rand read – and doubtless helped with the ideas in – the manuscript of Leonard Peikoff’s book The Ominous Parallels and thought very highly of it. Near the end of chapter 14 (“America Reverses Direction”) he writes of World War II:
“Once again [the first time being the first world war], the American public, which was strongly ‘isolationist,’ was manipulated by a pro-war administration into joining an ‘idealistic’ crusade.”
Note the word “manipulated” with its connotation of deceit. Note the derogatory quotes about “idealistic.” Clearly the author is praising the isolationists and criticizing Roosevelt, saying in effect that America’s entry into WW II was an act of useless national self-sacrifice just as was its entry into WW I.
Right before the above he writes (see also the “Intellectual Ammunition Department” of The Objectivist Newsletter August 1962):
“At the end of the thirties there were still ten million people unemployed, about two-thirds of the number without jobs in 1932. The problem was not solved until the excess manpower was sent to die on foreign battlefields.”
It is abundantly clear to the sincere reader that Ayn Rand was against America entering WW II.



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Post 18

Friday, January 2, 2009 - 8:16pmSanction this postReply
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That's a load of pacifist anarchist crap.

They have listed Rand's reasons for opposing FDR's personal statist and altruist interventionist pre-Pearl Harbor views. Once America was attacked she was all for the war effort and the way we waged it:

"And now what about this last war? Who started it? The alliance of two dictators, Hitler and Stalin. Now observe a most significant point: the American-British strategy throughout the war was to destroy the production centers of the enemy and knock him out - because America and England were not after loot, they had nothing to gain by war, they were the productive nations and they were merely defending themselves."-Notes for Top Secret [Emphasis added.]

Rand goes on for two pages about the origins of war and the need to oppose statism. She nowhere says anything about how we could have stayed out, how we got in because of bad premises (which she did believe FDR and Wilson had). She talks about the difference between capitalist and statist societies. She talks about the evil of appeasement. She does not talk about not sacrificing oneself for some "cause." She does not talk about some floating abstraction called the NIOF which for some people who call themselves Objectivists means one cannot initiate self-defense. She describes America as defending itself. Can anybody here tell me Rand's opinion on self-defense, and on the role of the government?


(Edited by Ted Keer on 1/03, 10:22am)


Post 19

Friday, January 2, 2009 - 9:44pmSanction this postReply
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Mark,

Thank you for the extensive reply.

My question is about a declaration of war on Japan - not Europe. Does anyone believe that we could ignore the attack on Pearl Harbor, or that we had any choice about going to war with Japan. Constitutionally we couldn't defend against Japan with the military might needed without the declaration of war. I don't believe Rand would have advocated turning the other cheek, or waiting till we were attacked on the mainland, or waiting till the Japanese put troops ashore in Japan.

Mark said, "The question is ‘‘Did she ever approve of FDR getting the U.S. into the war? – as evidenced by her explicit statement.’’" It should be phrased, "Did she approve of declaring war on Japan?" That is different from approving of FDR's manipulative ways, and his pre-declaration blockades and police actions in China. We do have statements by Rand, many of them, that are clear on a nation's right and obligation to defend itself from the initiation of force.

As to the war in Europe, I don't know how much, if any, choice there was for FDR after Dec. 7th, 1941. (Not that he wanted to stay out of the war.) When we declared war on Japan, the rest of Axis declared war on America immediately. It would have been only a short time till we were attacked by European belligerents (our shipping, for example), forcing us to use military on that front in some fashion.

I'm not giving my opinion of what the best course would have been for American, so much as trying to reconcile Rand's position regarding self-defense and the attack on Pearl Harbor. I have heard it said that the smart move would have been to get Churchill to pull back as to encourage Germany and the Soviet Union to fight and then to join in vanquishing the victor. No cold war, perhaps on Vietnam war, no Castro... etc. But events take on a life of their own that isn't always visible with hindsight.

The Japanese were a massive force to be reckoned with. Here is the time line I culled from Wikipedia:
  • 1931 - The Japanese began invade Manchuria
  • 1938 - Germany takes over Austria, and part of Czechoslovakian
  • 1939 - Japan is into the Second Sino-Japanese war
  • 1940 - September, Japan, Germany, Italy sign up formally as Axis.
  • 1941 - September, Hitler invades Poland - official start of WW2 (Britain and France go to war against Germany)
  • 1941 - June, Germany's surprise invasion of Soviet Union
  • 1941 - December 7th. Pearl Harbor which prompted the United States, United Kingdom, China and others to formally declare war on Japan. The Axis powers each responded by declaring war on the United States.
  • 1942 - by April, Japan conquers Burma, Philippines, Malaya, Dutch East Indies, Singapore,and achieved naval victories in the South China Sea, Java Sea and Indian Ocean and bombed the Allied naval base at Darwin, Australia.



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