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Sunday, February 1, 2009 - 10:05amSanction this postReply
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Is there a particular philosophy of time that is necessarily tied to the Objectivist theory of causation? There're several philosophical theories of time floating around out there as well as several philosophical theories of causation. Some of the latter are quite tied to the former. I'm not sure Objectivist causation has such a restriction. Thoughts?

I'm also just curious as to whether Objectivism in general prefers some theories of time over others, and any in particular.

For a general overview on philosophical theories of time, you might want to visit http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/time/

Jordan

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Sunday, February 1, 2009 - 10:26amSanction this postReply
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Time is a relation between the motion or change of bodies. There is no need to make this a mysterious issue. Augustine addressed it sufficiently, and the rest is called science, not philosophy.

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Sunday, February 1, 2009 - 11:30amSanction this postReply
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From a timelord, that's a mighty short answer on this topic.

Jordan

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Post 3

Sunday, February 1, 2009 - 12:05pmSanction this postReply
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Jordan,

These are my thoughts on time.

Reality is everything that currently exists. Reality continually changes. Time is a measure of how much reality has changed. The past and the future do not exist, time travel is not possible because there is nothing to travel to. Records of the past are possible because some parts of reality can change slowly and some parts can change quickly, and in this way is the only way that the past exists, it exists as in what has not changed much so far. The future is merely our current predictions and imaginings of what may come to be.

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Post 4

Sunday, February 1, 2009 - 12:06pmSanction this postReply
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Jordan wrote:

From a timelord, that's a mighty short answer on this topic.

Time is like a "wubbledy shubbledy ball" (spelling?) according to The Tenth Doctor in "Blink."

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 2/01, 1:28pm)


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Sunday, February 1, 2009 - 12:22pmSanction this postReply
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Yes, Blink, one of the best episodes ever. Dramatically, if not metaphysically.

In Full:




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Post 6

Sunday, February 1, 2009 - 1:06pmSanction this postReply
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Is there a particular philosophy of time that is necessarily tied to the Objectivist theory of causation?
No, in my opinion. Time is a unique idea, which can't be wholly explained in other terms. It is the context of change and seems meaningless without change. A unit for measuring time is a chosen instance of time used to compare other times to it with the help of numbers.


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Post 7

Sunday, February 1, 2009 - 2:24pmSanction this postReply
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To measure time requires recognizing cycles. Day and night are an obvious beginning place. A single cycle can then be used to time another change--how many times does it happen in a day, or how many days does it take for it to happen.
Since we cannot go underneath cycles to see if indeed they all take the same "time," we are only able to detect time relatively, like motion.

I would add to Merlin's statement that time is usually spoken of as the "dimension" of change. Think of all sorts of changes, motion, growth, day-to-night, fatigue. Now ask yourself what they all have in common. The answer is a "before" and an "after" state. (Where the before is just before the after, and vice versa.) Changes taken together manifest a dimension, which we come to call "time."

(Edited by Mindy Newton on 2/01, 2:27pm)


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Post 8

Sunday, February 1, 2009 - 4:05pmSanction this postReply
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Time is a measurement of duration...

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Post 9

Sunday, February 1, 2009 - 4:27pmSanction this postReply
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Brilliant!

Just friggin' brilliant!

Call Stockholm...


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Post 10

Monday, February 2, 2009 - 3:53amSanction this postReply
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In his 1908 book Identity and Reality, Emile Meyerson wrote:
“The principle of causality is none other than the principle of identity applied to the existence of objects in time.”
(p. 43 in the 1930 translation)

In her 1957 novel Atlas Shrugged, Ayn Rand wrote:
“The law of causality is the law of identity applied to action.”
(p. 1037)

Would it be consistent to affirm the mind-independent reality of actions and causal relations in the world, yet take time to be not in the mind-independent world? I don’t see how. The unreality of time, a thesis maintained by the metaphysical idealists such as Bradley, should be rejected in Rand’s philosophy. Kant’s idea that time is a form supplied by our cognitive systems, and not known to be in the world as it is independently of mind, should also be rejected.

The reality of time is manifest in perception. Time is part of the identity of existents. In addition it is experienced in our own activities.

In Rand’s ontology, an existent is an entity, an action, an attribute, or a relationship. Which of these is time? Surely it is not an entity in Rand’s ontology. An existent that does not necessarily exist as inhering in some other existent is an entity. But time does necessarily inhere in something else. So time is not an entity in Rand’s ontology.

Time is distinct from action. Change is taken under the latter. Time is distinct from action and change and from the relation that is causality too. Time must be an attribute or relation or both. Does Rand’s metaphysics imply which of those three is the existent that is time?

Jordan, in your first paragraph, are you asking whether time inheres always and only in causal processes according to Rand’s metaphysics? Rand’s remarks on action make the common assumption that action is temporal. Because time is an attribute or relation or both, it must inhere in entities. The question would remain, however, whether time inheres in entities only as an attendant of action. Is there an argument from Rand’s ontology to the conclusion that time exists only in connection with action? And if so, is there an argument from Rand’s ontology to the conclusion that time exists only in connection with the causal aspects of action?

Whether Rand's statement in the second paragraph above entails Meyerson's in the first would depend on whether they both tie the existence of time to action and only action.

Does the fact that existence exists entail that existence endures? Are there existents, according to Rand’s metaphysics, for which it is possible that they do not enter into temporal relations? Rand did not allow that there could be an existent (leaving aside existence as a whole) not related to other existents. She writes:
    Measurement is the identification of a relationship in numerical terms—and the complexity of the science of measurement indicates the complexity of the relationships which exist in the universe . . . . If anything were actually “immeasurable,” it would bear no relationship of any kind to the rest of the universe, it would not affect nor be affected by anything else in any manner whatever, it would enact no causes and bear no consequences—in short, it would not exist. (ITOE 39)

In Rand’s metaphysics, that which one perceives exists, and “everything that man perceives is particular, concrete” (ITOE 1). The particular, concrete existents subsumed under “the concepts ‘existence’ and ‘identity’ are every entity, attribute, action, event, or phenomenon (including consciousness) that exists, has ever existed or will ever exist” (ITOE 56). All particular, concrete existents stand in temporal relations, in Rand’s view. If there are any particular, concrete existents that are not perceivable, then at least they are susceptible to measurement of some sort and therefore stand in temporal relations.

Rand packs quite a bit into her epigram “Existence is identity” (which can be extended). She also packs quite a lot into her foundational statement “Existence exists.” She takes this two-word statement to include not only the idea that existence endures, but that it endures through all times. “To grasp the axiom that existence exists, means to grasp the fact that nature, i.e., the universe as a whole, cannot be created or annihilated, that it cannot come into or go out of existence” (M v. MM; see further a, b).

See also.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Dean, concerning #3,

Would time be just one measure, among others, of how much the world has changed? In the decay of a certain bit of uranium, the amount of uranium remaining would be a measure of how much the bit has changed. The increase of wrinkles on my hands are a measure of how much their skin has changed. Is time a universal measure on which all these other measures depend?

I notice that changes in numbers of things is a dimensionless quantity, whereas time is not a dimensionless quantity (seconds, hours, etc.). That would suggest that changes in numbers of things is a more elementary measure of change than time is a measure of change.

(Edited by Stephen Boydstun on 2/02, 10:42am)


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Monday, February 2, 2009 - 4:13amSanction this postReply
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Then it should be phrased - time is the measurability of duration?

Post 12

Monday, February 2, 2009 - 5:49amSanction this postReply
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Time is a measurement of duration...
"Duration" is only a synonym of "time", so this is circular. It is no better than "length is a measure of distance" or "distance is a measure of length."

(Edited by Merlin Jetton on 2/02, 7:27am)


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Monday, February 2, 2009 - 6:07amSanction this postReply
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Length is a specification of distance - not the same thing...
The same with time being a specification of duration...
(Edited by robert malcom on 2/02, 6:08am)


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Monday, February 2, 2009 - 10:52amSanction this postReply
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Stephen, do you agree that measuring time requires noting some cycle of action (or change) such as day/night, which we use as the original unit of measurement? Our observations of durations don't require this, but measurement does?

General:
With the concept of time, we face perhaps the ultimate challenge of keeping separate what we know and how we know it. The best heuristic for meeting that challenge, I think, is to keep constantly in mind that each observation, fact, phenomenon, etc., is just one piece of the picture.


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Monday, February 2, 2009 - 11:29amSanction this postReply
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Hi Stephen,

=================
Jordan, in your first paragraph, are you asking whether time inheres always and only in causal processes according to Rand’s metaphysics?
=================

No. I'm asking whether Rand's theory of causation depends on some particular theory or theories of time and whether her theory is incompatible with certain theories of time.

For instance, would Rand's theory of causation reject the A-series or B-series; would it entail presentism or eternalism or the growing universe?

Jordan


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Post 16

Tuesday, February 3, 2009 - 3:16amSanction this postReply
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As in the definition at NIST, so in physics and in widespread usage, the term “time” has two meanings: It can mean the designation of a particular instant* as when we say “the time at which such-and-such occurred.” It can also mean the time interval between two events. Time interval is also called duration.

Time

Mindy, so far as I know, time intervals are measured directly only by cycle counts of periodic processes. The time intervals, or durations, of cycles are called periods, and the reciprocal of period is called frequency. Definition of “clock” is here:

Clock

* Or the designation of a particular interval, as when we say “the time of the dinosaurs.”

Jordon, I hope to contribute to discussion of some of those issues shortly.
McTaggart’s 1908 paper “The Unreality of Time” is available online here.

(Edited by Stephen Boydstun on 2/04, 1:39am)


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Tuesday, February 3, 2009 - 1:28pmSanction this postReply
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Stephen,

Looking forward to it.

Jordan

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Post 18

Thursday, February 12, 2009 - 5:52amSanction this postReply
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In Aristotle on the Common Sense the author says the following about Aristotle's view of time. I assume the author's account is accurate. Much of what Aristotle said about time is in the short work On Memory and Reminiscence.

Aristotle's account of the perception of time does not refer to to the awareness of the passage of time, but the temporal relation of past versus present. The perception of time is constitutive of memory. Memory is not part of the thinking capacity of the soul. After all, nonhuman animals have memory, too. Aristotle used 'imagination' in this context to mean using images when remembering. Imagination in this sense is another main function of the common sense. Since memory requires a perception of time and an image of the thing remembered, memory is the proper work of the common sense, and is only incidentally part of the thinking capacity of the soul. The grasp of magnitude and change is necessarily related with the grasp of time.

Next I turn to some of the comments made earlier on this thread.

In post 6 I related time and change and said time seems meaningless without change. I think Aristotle would agree.

In post 7 Mindy expresses "time" in terms of "before" and "after." There is an obvious commonality between before/after, earlier/later, and Aristotle's past/present distinction. She said time is usually spoken of as the "dimension" of change. I agree, but would say a dimension of change, because distance is also a dimension of change (in motion).

In post 10 Stephen said, "The reality of time is manifest in perception." This appears consistent with Aristotle. Stephen does not say we perceive time analogous to perceiving magnitude or color, only that it is "manifest" with perception.

In post 16 Stephen says "time" has two meanings -- a particular instant and a duration, the interval between two events (or particular instants). Agreed.

In post 12 I objected to Robert Malcom's definition(?) "time is a measurement of duration", that it was circular. If "time" is construed only as measured duration, then that is true by stipulation. However, it doesn't follow the rules for a good definition. We know that "time" has other meanings as given above and a definiens should be more fundamental than the definiendum (if possible). One can't measure time without knowing what time is absent measuring it. Any unit for measuring time, e.g. a minute, is itself a particular time. When time is explained in terms of past/present or change, then that is more fundamental.

Here I asked if the reader considers time a 'common perceptible'. Aristotle would answer 'no' in that it is not perceptible by any of the five senses.

(Edited by Merlin Jetton on 2/12, 2:14pm)


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Post 19

Thursday, February 12, 2009 - 11:37amSanction this postReply
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We seem to grasp time on multiple levels.
  • The present: The senses (via percepts) show immediate change, a dimension of which is time.
  • The past: Memory is a stored, edited, summarized series of changes that represent our past exeriences and contain, implicitly, markers of time - again as dimensions of the changes remembered.
  • The future: We put the dimension of time into future by forecasting changes and implicitly recognizing that they will still have that dimension of time.
  • Our subjective experience: A month is but a tiny percent of an older man's life, but tell a 6 year old that Christmas is still one month away. And we have all experienced the shifts in focus that change our awareness of the passing of time. Too little change that characterizes as boredom is 'slow' in passing, while intense focus in an activity that fascinates goes by 'quickly' despite a great deal of change.
  • The objective measure: We create a formalized concept of this dimension of change, where we look at cycles to use as measures of time, like days, minutes, centuries and conceptualize a particular change by its duration. "That was over a year ago that I said that." We adjust our frame of reference for the units of measurement to suit our context, for example, by using Universal Coordinated Time when we discuss changes that involve multiple time zones. Or using Einstein's relativity for objects going real, real fast.
The word "time" can be used to denote
  • an instance ("at 12:08 EST..."),
  • a measure ("Use milliseconds to discuss shutter speeds.",
  • a duration ("It went on for hours.",,
  • or a metaphysical dimension of change which is a metaphysical attribute of entities ("Time has no beginning.")
And there are implied uses of time, "I thought that he'd never stop talking," where the person is saying, "I thought that there would never be an instance in time where the change was from him talking to him not talking."

There is no such thing as change without it's dimension of time, just as there is no such thing as time floating about without anything changing. And change always implies something that is changing.


(Edited by Steve Wolfer on 2/12, 11:41am)


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