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Post 20

Thursday, February 5, 2009 - 10:47amSanction this postReply
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Ted asked:

Please address why a property owner has no obligation to act to defend his own property.

Assume a system of property rights defended by government and financed by property deed filing costs and land taxes akin to what Ayn Rand proposed.

A property owner who purchases property and registers his ownership with the appointed government authority has thus defended his property.

Those who live within this sytem know this and have obligations to respect those property lines.

Clearly a piece of land with a home, pool, and other development belongs to someone else, not oneself.

To demand that every property owner resort to fencing his property in such a system is absurd on its face.

As Robert Malcom observed, even a fence offers no guarantee of respect for property rights.

Additional costs of enforcement come from fines inflicted upon trespassers.

I am shocked and disappointed that I have to explain this.

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 2/05, 10:51am)


Post 21

Thursday, February 5, 2009 - 2:00pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Luke,

Your funny hypos are sufficient. A more concrete story is unnecessary because I'm just trying to nail down a principle here. But if you like, I'll tweak two stories loosely based on actual cases.

1. This guy knew kids were trespassing on his property, so one day he left his truck unlocked with the keys in the ignition but with malfunctioning brakes. His intent was to get the kids to take the truck and crash it. They did and one of them died.

2. There's another case about a guy leaving a gun spring-loaded behind the door of an old abandoned shack on his farm. He knew that kids liked to go in there and play. A kid opened the door and sure enough got his leg blown off.

Jordan

Post 22

Thursday, February 5, 2009 - 2:01pmSanction this postReply
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I am not shocked, but am disappointed that we seem to be ignorant of long standing common law. So, for our armchair lawyers:

Attractive Nuisance

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Under the attractive nuisance doctrine of the law of torts, a landowner may be held liable for injuries to children trespassing on the land if the injury is caused by a hazardous object or condition on the land that is likely to attract children who are unable to appreciate the risk posed by the object or condition. The doctrine has been applied to hold landowners liable for injuries caused by abandoned cars, piles of lumber or sand, trampolines, and swimming pools. However, it can be applied to virtually anything on the property of the landowner.
According to the Restatement of Torts standard, which is followed in many jurisdictions, there are five conditions that must be met for a land owner to be liable for tort damages to a child trespasser. The five conditions are:
The place where the condition exists is one on which the possessor knows or has reason to know that children are likely to trespass, and
The condition is one of which the possessor knows or has reason to know and which he realizes or should realize will involve an unreasonable risk of death or serious bodily harm to such children,
The children, because of their youth, do not discover the condition or realize the risk involved in inter-meddling with it or in coming within the area made dangerous by it
The utility to the possessor of maintaining the condition and the burden of eliminating the danger are slight as compared with the risk to children involved, and
The possessor fails to exercise reasonable care to eliminate the danger or otherwise to protect the children
(See Restatement of Torts §339)
While putting up a sign to warn children regarding the danger of the land may exempt the landowner from liability, it will not work in all situations.[citation needed] This is particularly true when the child cannot read the sign. Usually the landowner must take some more affirmative steps to protect children.
Each one of the five conditions must be met for the landowner to be liable for tort damages.
States that use the Restatement test include:
North Carolina
Ohio – see case: Bennett v. Stanley, 92 Ohio St.3d 35 (2001)[1]
Pennsylvania
Utah – see case: Pullan v. Steinmetz, 16 P.3d 1245 (2000)[2]

There is no set cut off point that defines youth. The courts will evaluate each "child" on case by case basis to see if the "child" qualifies as a youth.
Under the old common law, the plaintiff (either the child, or a parent suing on the child's behalf) had to show that it was the hazardous condition itself which lured the child onto the landowner's property. However, most jurisdictions have statutorily altered this condition, and now require only that the injury was foreseeable.

I'll post my own response later.

(Edited by Ted Keer on 2/05, 2:06pm)


Post 23

Thursday, February 5, 2009 - 2:02pmSanction this postReply
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Are you sure that those stories are accurate? I've heard similar tales previously, and generally the rest of the story is that the individuals did things like this after a pattern of criminal trespass and vandalism. Is that a factor in the stories you're using, because it would matter?

Post 24

Thursday, February 5, 2009 - 2:11pmSanction this postReply
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More:

Mantraps that use deadly force are illegal in the United States, and there have been notable tort law cases where the trespasser has successfully sued the property owner for damages caused by the mantrap. As noted in the important US mantrap case of Katko v. Briney, "the law has always placed a higher value upon human safety than upon mere rights of property."[2]


Post 25

Thursday, February 5, 2009 - 2:16pmSanction this postReply
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When they said, "...mere rights of property" they lost my respect. That is clearly a judge without an understanding of property rights.

Post 26

Thursday, February 5, 2009 - 2:58pmSanction this postReply
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That is because of the myth of intrinsic value - that is, human life of itself more valued than extended ownership of another's life...

Post 27

Thursday, February 5, 2009 - 3:37pmSanction this postReply
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Steve, the wording of one judge is not important - I simply accurately quoted my source, which you should consider - the point of law is.

A mantrap can kill, and kill indiscriminately. The state properly reserves the right to execute. A person can kill in active self defense, but that is not what a mantrap does, and they can and do kill innocent people (as well as thieves, which no one here may mourn) and hence if the law is to maintain a monopoly on the use of force, the use of lethal mantraps is properly forbidden.



Post 28

Thursday, February 5, 2009 - 4:52pmSanction this postReply
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Ryan,

Like I said, I tweaked the stories.

Jordan

Post 29

Thursday, February 5, 2009 - 5:00pmSanction this postReply
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I didn't notice, Jordan, my apologies. The local version of that story is a guy electrified his attic, as there had been a lot of break ins at his house. That seems almost defendable. The other is a guy that rigged a VCR to explode due to burglaries, which it did in the hands of a pawn shop owner who had no idea where it came from. Obviously criminal. It seems like this sort of thing would have to be investigated on a case by case basis. A guy that puts out bear traps in desperation due to repeated crimes on his property, with no help from police, is a totally different scenario than a nut who just booby traps the hell out of everything.

Post 30

Thursday, February 5, 2009 - 5:51pmSanction this postReply
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Ted,

What do you mean, "...which you should consider"? We have to put up with that kind of crap on Wikipedia. Here, if I didn't quote a source accurately, I'd hope to hear about it in a friendlier fashion and not as innuendo pointed at my character.

Your argument about the indiscriminate nature of a mantrap carries weight. When you combined that with the fact that it isn't the same as self-defense against an imminent threat and your have a solid argument.

But the argument you chose to quote before that has a view of individual rights that is full of contradictions. Don't bite my head off for pointing that out.

Post 31

Thursday, February 5, 2009 - 6:01pmSanction this postReply
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The which in which you should consider was the source (i.e., consider the source, which is wikipedia). In other words I was crticizing wikipedia - not you.

Congratulations on the fifth icon. When did that happen?

Post 32

Thursday, February 5, 2009 - 6:06pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks, Ted. Sorry, didn't mean to snap at you - I misread your post (I've been out on Wikipedia too much today).

I didn't notice the 5th icon till you mentioned, but I suspect it was recent.

Post 33

Friday, February 6, 2009 - 5:15amSanction this postReply
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Parents have a positive obligation to instruct children not to trespass and to enforce that instruction.

Not all common law is moral, nor does it resonate with Objectivism.

The common law Ted cites in Post 22 is immoral and contradicts the Objectivist view of property rights.

My argument is about what the law ought to be, not what it is now.

As for Jordan's stories, I have some sympathy for the idea of the property owner penalizing those who violate one's property rights, especially in an ineffective law enforcement system, but would have to chew the idea further. The "tweaked" stories sound extreme but, again, people who trespass take their chances. That is my take on it. I'm more worried about emergency rescue personnel getting injured than criminal punks.

There was a story a few years ago about some kids who got shot after breaking into a house they thought was abandoned only to find an armed owner inside. I had no sympathy for them. Didn't they have better things to do?

I fully agree with Robert Malcom's Post 26 about the fallacy of intrinsically valuing human life. A few years ago, Florida strengthened self-defense laws:

The law, written by the National Rifle Association, passed by the Legislature and signed by Gov. Jeb Bush, eases the rules by which Floridians can use deadly force in self-defense. Residents can now use such force to protect themselves anywhere they have "a right to be" without first trying to retreat. In allowing this, the law broadened the "castle doctrine," named for the English common-law tradition that a man has a right to defend his castle, by applying it to public settings.

I support this idea of defending oneself in one's travels.

As an aside, "This Land Is Your Land" originally included this verse:

Was a high wall there that tried to stop me
A sign was painted said: Private Property,
But on the back side it didn't say nothing --
[God blessed America for me.]


(Edited by Luke Setzer on 2/06, 5:44am)


Post 34

Friday, February 6, 2009 - 9:53amSanction this postReply
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Hi Ryan,

The law would've required the owners to put warnings on the electric attack and kaboom VCR, per obligations to undiscovered/unanticipated trespassers. what's your take on that?

Jordan

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Post 35

Friday, February 6, 2009 - 8:45pmSanction this postReply
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Luke,

I have to agree with the attractive nuisance issue, and kids are not rational, mature adults (in fact, not many adults are). Something such as a pool is an invitation to disaster, and it is a rational request to ask that they be somehow secured (e.g. a fence). I do not have a hard time making a leap between the concept of erecting a stop sign at a street corner, and erecting a child-proof fence around a swimming pool. There can be good regulations to prevent stupidity, and this is one example.

jt

Post 36

Friday, February 6, 2009 - 8:50pmSanction this postReply
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I have mixed feelings. I feel like the electric attic guy was totally within his rights. Its in an out of the way part of the house on his property. It is a dangerous move though, if you invite a guest in and they wander into it, he has either assaulted or murdered the poor guy. The exploding VCR thing seems just plain wrong. Mainly because you have no control over the consequences. You're enticing a trespasser into taking a dangerous object into situations where innocents might get hurt. That seems just as immoral as firing into a crowd while shooting at a fleeing trespasser.

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Post 37

Saturday, February 7, 2009 - 8:55amSanction this postReply
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Luke,

How obnoxious is it, really? You say it is welfare. I recall you saying in the past that you live in a covenanted community. Don’t knock yourself out digging it up if you don’t recall, but I am curious: Did you agree to a provision requiring fences around pools?

I understand that covenants are voluntary and laws are not, but your willingness to agree to such a rule diminishes your contention that it’s welfare—because I don’t believe you would sign onto what you yourself truly perceived as welfare.



Post 38

Saturday, February 7, 2009 - 9:36amSanction this postReply
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So Luke, getting back to the original point of the thread, what obligations if any do owners owe to others on their land?

Jordan

Post 39

Saturday, February 7, 2009 - 9:40amSanction this postReply
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I'm seeing fallacies of equating key terms here -- in this case equating government property and compulsory laws with private property and voluntary agreements.

Jay, I am told that in Australia or New Zealand (or both), the traffic laws require all persons at an intersection to stop and stop signs are not posted.  So stop signs are apparently not universal.  (But check my facts on that one.)  Regardless, governments typically own all highways and even private roads have de facto "invited guests" who deserve fair warnings of safety hazards in commonly used language.

Jon, yes, I live in a voluntary community with voluntary standards.  No, this is not welfare but chosen contract.  We have one community pool with a fence and a locked gate, and you know what?  Some vandals still managed to pull an "inside job" and dragged a dead hog carcass into the area (no doubt one had a key!) and dumped it into the pool!  So even a locked fence offers no guarantee of good behavior.  The homeowners association spent a small fortune cleaning and decontaminating the pool and getting a clean bill of health from the local authorities.  So, really, we need a fence to protect us from outsiders, not to protect outsiders from us!

My point, gentlemen, is that you need to distinguish "the commons" (government property) from private land (or corporate property), thus distinguishing the compulsory from the voluntary.

Keep your laws off my body and, by extension, my property.

Why I keep having to explain myself eludes me.  I guess what is obvious to me is not obvious to others.  I may write a blog entry about this provocatively entitled "Giving Human Life Its Due Disrespect" just to hammer my point home to readers.

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 2/07, 9:41am)


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