About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadBack one pagePage 0Page 1


Post 20

Monday, December 7, 2009 - 1:38pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

Hi Ted,

 

First, I would want a quote of Aristotle in context to know exactly of whom he is speaking, and most importantly I would also want the original Greek, since the translator's word choice may be very misleading. Incorporeal is a very loaded Latin term.

 

Aristotle's Metaphysics Book 1, translated, is available for free at a number of sites -- Example 1, Example 2, Example 3. If you skip to Part 8, you'll see the context in which Aristotle courts incorporealism. In speaking of causes, he's endorses incorporeal substance in contrast with the 4 corporeal elements. In essence, he was accusing the Presocratics of equating physis with hyle. More talk of incorporeal stuff is found in Aristotle's On Generation and Corruption.  I don't know where to find the original Greek, but even so, I'd don't know Greek (do you?), much less Ancient Greek, and would still be at the mercy of translators.

 

Not that it's of consequence, but let's talk terms. You noted that the Greek for "body" came from one etymological chain, which includes physis. Physis (now the physical) did not necessarily entail the bodily.  Physis comes from the Greek verb for "to bring forth" or "generating," and was used to describe what made things be. The Presocratics conceived of physis as the extended. The Milesians in particular would narrow that by viewing the extended as the bodily. Aristotle, in contrast, rejected the physis as the extended and the bodily, favoring instead physis as being motion of incorporeal substance. (See Physics, Book III.) 

 

Jordan


Post 21

Monday, December 7, 2009 - 1:40pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
http://meta.montclair.edu/ancient/greek/aristotle_greek/

http://old.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Aabo%3Atlg%2C0086%2C025&query=980a&vers=original
(Edited by robert malcom on 12/07, 1:45pm)


Post 22

Monday, December 7, 2009 - 2:54pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

Yes, I do know enough ancient Greek to make an informed judgment, although I will want a dictionary and a grammar on hand. I always check my Greek New Testament, for example.

The English verb 'to be' is an exact cognate of the Greek phuein. They both come from the Proto-Indo-European root *bheu- which Watkins glosses as 'to be, exist, grow' in his American Heritage Dictionary of Indo-European Roots (Amazon). (All Objectivists and other 'people' who speak English are negligent if they do not own a copy of this book.)

You can read the entry for bheu@- (@ standing for schwa) here by clicking the blue right arrow to page 11 and then scrolling to the bottom of the right hand column of that page.

Note that the Greek root phyto- meaning 'plant' is cognate to the English word bud.

The meaning "produce" of phuein is secondary. It is the same semantic development as the English "grow" that has occured within our lifetimes. Before the Clinton presidency, to grow was an intransitive verb meaning to become larger. Now, with the use of such phrases as "To grow the economy" it has become transitive, meaning to cause to become larger.

Thanks for the Aristotle links.

Post 23

Monday, December 7, 2009 - 3:48pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Kudos do you for wading through the Greek, Ted.

What I've read tells me that, in the context of the Ancient Greeks, "to produce" was central in meaning for physis. For them, an investigation into being always entailed investigation into the source of, or origin of, or that which brought forth, or that which produced being. Today, however, this meaning no longer attached to what we now call the physical.

Jordan


Post to this threadBack one pagePage 0Page 1


User ID Password or create a free account.