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Saturday, December 12, 2009 - 7:31amSanction this postReply
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After doing quite a bit of solitary thinking of the subject, including reading the ImportanceOfPhilosophy site and agreeing with most of its structure (though not necessarily all of its details), I eventually came to the conclusion that the ethical standard I try to live by is something along the lines of "the preservation and promotion of sapient life", somewhere over half the time adding "(especially my own life)".

Would anyone be interested in discussing this standard, or comparing and contrasting your own?

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Post 1

Saturday, December 12, 2009 - 10:34amSanction this postReply
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Daniel,

The preservation and promotion of sapient life seems noble, but I would disagree with it because it's not agent-(read: virtue-) based. I'd call it utilitarian. There are somewhere around 4 ways to view ethics:

1) based on a communicated rule or rules, often -- but not always -- presumed to be from a supernatural being (deontology)
2) based on your feelings ("noncognitive" ethical subjectivism)
3) based on the potential array of "recipients" of any and all supposed "goods" (utilitarian)
4) based on the moral agent (for humans: rational, or ethical, egoism)

I have been convinced that #4 is the correct view for human ethics. Here is an article I wrote about it.

Please let me know if you think I was correct (or not) to characterize your view as utilitarian. And, if inclined, let me know what you think of the article.

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 12/12, 10:49am)


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Saturday, December 12, 2009 - 11:16amSanction this postReply
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I would say, for starters that these sentiments are not mutually exclusive. The values needed to preserve one's own life are not exclusive to just one person, therefore it is important that all others respect your value, and logical that you must respect that value for others.

It can certainly be argued many ways that procreation is another means of 'preserving' one's life... through posterity. If accepting that idea, then preservation of one's posterity also becomes an important personal facet of that value. Consequently, there is a logical argument for respecting the value of other's success in issuing in new generations (of course, it is not something someone could do alone anyhow).

In essence, I'd say that our interest in - as you say - "the preservation and promotion of sapient life" is a rather straightforward extension of one's own personal self interest. This is not to say, though, that its importance exceeds that of the importance of the individual's own need to survive. The individual always has the responsibility and right to determine where they will place the highest value. In other words, the individual is not morally obligated to place preservation of others before personal self-preservation. When such unfortunate circumstance should arise, an individual must decide which choice is the greater personal value.

jt

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Saturday, December 12, 2009 - 12:10pmSanction this postReply
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Ed, I'm willing to agree that the standard I described is 'utilitarian'. However, I disagree about your conclusion that your item #4 is necessarily distinct from #3. Much like how Jay put it, it's a given that, with present-day technology, it's effectively impossible for any single individual to survive, let alone have a comfortable, enjoyable life, and thus it's in everyone's long-term rational self-interest to have a working society around them which provides them various opportunities for personal advancement... and thus, we seem to agree.


On a related note, it's entirely possible that, say, thirty years from now, gerontology will have advanced to the point where my expected lifespan increases by at least one year per year that passes... which adds the interesting possibility of personal immortality (or something close to it) to ethical debates - to alter the rules of our society's Prisoner's Dilemma from having a guaranteed end-point, to one that is at least potentially indefinite

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Saturday, December 12, 2009 - 12:41pmSanction this postReply
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Daniel,

You perhaps expand my idea a little too broadly. A single individual can certainly survive comfortably, maybe even enjoyably without others and within the framework of their natural lifetime (although perhaps a little boring). I will concede man is naturally a social creature though, and that (most) men would find the company of others and a rational, working society to be preferable.

Crusoe did well, but welcomed having Friday. Tarzan got along fine before, but... well, his quality of life was so much better with Jane.

jt
(Edited by Jay Abbott on 12/12, 12:42pm)


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Saturday, December 12, 2009 - 2:17pmSanction this postReply
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In order to preserve and promote sapient life we need four immediate initiatives, socialized medicine, publicly subsidized child care, a program of eugenic and analgesic euthanasia, and a ban on birth control.

Can you say Lebensborn?

Post 6

Saturday, December 12, 2009 - 2:50pmSanction this postReply
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Jay, I disagree that, with current tech, a lone individual can survive comfortable without a society for a significant length of time. Can you acquire all your own food, in sufficient quantities that a few years' bad harvest won't lead to starvation? If your appendix goes septic, can you replace it yourself? When your brain starts to wear out, can you run a research program to cure whichever disease will kill you first?

I'm not disagreeing that in exceptionally good circumstances, a lone individual can survive about as well as, say, an animal... but merely surviving as an animal isn't good enough for me - I want to /live/, not just survive.


Ted, your profile says you live in the USA; I live in Canada, and from what I've seen, what people in your country call 'socialized medicine', people in mine call 'a gosh-darned good idea' :) with, according to the stats I've seen, better medical results for the average inhabitant according to most metrics. Since, from what I've seen, the results are better at promoting life, I'm in favour of government-funded health care.

I'm not entirely sure about publicly-subsidized child care; I know that some form of it has existed in some Canadian provinces, but I haven't read anything about it in recent years. I simply lack enough data to say anything useful on this, so I'm quite willing to say "I don't know".

From what I've read, those who argue in favour of allowing patients to voluntarily suicide, even if assistance is required for the act, which opponents of the practice call 'analgesic euthanasia', tend to align with my own preferences of individual self-determination, while those who oppose the entire idea also tend to oppose other medical practices I'm in favour of. If you're referring to some other practice, then my answer might be different.

I happen to strongly disagree that eugenic euthanasia is a good idea - the most prominent example of a society which practiced it is a prime example of why it would be a bad idea to do so, and thus, in order to promote sapients' welfare, it's in the general public interest to oppose involuntary euthanasia.

As for banning birth control, that simply doesn't seem to follow at all. Promoting the welfare of living sapients almost inherently includes allowing those sapients to be able to confidently control their own reproductive processes. Preserving sapient lives /doesn't/ necessarily imply preserving every gamete that could potentially become a sapient life.



Another formulation of the standard from my first post is pure selfishness: specifically, rational, long-term self-interest, rather than petty hedonism.


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Saturday, December 12, 2009 - 5:34pmSanction this postReply
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Mr Boese, I have read your profile, you call yourself an Objectivist, and I call you a liar.

Post 8

Saturday, December 12, 2009 - 5:44pmSanction this postReply
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Daniel:

I live in Canada, and from what I've seen, what people in your country call 'socialized medicine', people in mine call 'a gosh-darned good idea' :) with, according to the stats I've seen, better medical results for the average inhabitant according to most metrics. Since, from what I've seen, the results are better at promoting life, I'm in favour of government-funded health care.


Which metrics are you using? Canada has a higher life expectancy but that's because they have a lower homicide and accidental death rate and a much lower obesity rate than the United States. If you compare cancer survivability rates, which is a much more accurate measure of quality medical care, the United States has a higher cancer survivability rate. By your own standards you're favoring the wrong health care system.

I'm also not aware of any Americans that seek any health care in Canada, yet there are plenty of Canadians that come to America for health care. It's also nice that Canada can make use of all those wonderful innovations in pharmacology and medical technologies, that originate in the United States.



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Saturday, December 12, 2009 - 6:20pmSanction this postReply
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Ted,

I have heard certain, shall we say, horror stories about how Objectivists snipe at others that don't meet each others' definitions. I use the essay(s) at www.ImportanceOfPhilosophy.com as my baseline of what Objectivism is; and, as I've said elsewhere on this forum, I agree with the overall structure of the philosophy presented, while disagreeing with certain particular points.

I'm all in favour of minimizing government, /when/ doing so seems, according to what I know of the topic, doing so improves peoples' lives. However, I do not see reducing and/or eliminating government as the be-all and end-all of political ambition; when a government program seems to me to /improve/ peoples' lives, I'm willing to support it.

If, by your definition of Objectivism, that means I'm not an Objectivist, then sobeit. However, according to the descriptions I've seen, such as "reason is man's means of survival" and the rest of the IOP site, I believe that I count as one, and I will leave my profile as it is, unless you can convince me otherwise, or the site moderators alter my profile without my consent.


Post 10

Saturday, December 12, 2009 - 6:46pmSanction this postReply
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No Daniel, you are certainly not an Objectivist if you think it's moral to initiate the use of force. You are far from just disagreeing with certain particular points, you fundamentally disagree with Objectivism.

Post 11

Saturday, December 12, 2009 - 7:12pmSanction this postReply
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Rand on One Foot

(from the ARI website)

The following is a short description of Objectivism given by Ayn Rand in 1962.

by Ayn Rand

At a sales conference at Random House, preceding the publication of Atlas Shrugged, one of the book salesmen asked me whether I could present the essence of my philosophy while standing on one foot. I did as follows:

Metaphysics Objective Reality

Epistemology Reason

Ethics Self-interest

Politics Capitalism

If you want this translated into simple language, it would read: 1. “Nature, to be commanded, must be obeyed” or “Wishing won’t make it so.” 2. “You can’t eat your cake and have it, too.” 3. “Man is an end in himself.” 4. “Give me liberty or give me death.”

If you held these concepts with total consistency, as the base of your convictions, you would have a full philosophical system to guide the course of your life. But to hold them with total consistency—to understand, to define, to prove and to apply them—requires volumes of thought. Which is why philosophy cannot be discussed while standing on one foot—nor while standing on two feet on both sides of every fence. This last is the predominant philosophical position today, particularly in the field of politics.

My philosophy, Objectivism, holds that:

Reality exists as an objective absolute—facts are facts, independent of man’s feelings, wishes, hopes or fears.

Reason (the faculty which identifies and integrates the material provided by man’s senses) is man’s only means of perceiving reality, his only source of knowledge, his only guide to action, and his basic means of survival.

Man—every man—is an end in himself, not the means to the ends of others. He must exist for his own sake, neither sacrificing himself to others nor sacrificing others to himself. The pursuit of his own rational self-interest and of his own happiness is the highest moral purpose of his life.

The ideal political-economic system is laissez-faire capitalism. It is a system where men deal with one another, not as victims and executioners, nor as masters and slaves, but as traders, by free, voluntary exchange to mutual benefit. It is a system where no man may obtain any values from others by resorting to physical force, and no man may initiate the use of physical force against others. The government acts only as a policeman that protects man’s rights; it uses physical force only in retaliation and only against those who initiate its use, such as criminals or foreign invaders. In a system of full capitalism, there should be (but, historically, has not yet been) a complete separation of state and economics, in the same way and for the same reasons as the separation of state and church.

Copyright © 1962 by Times-Mirror Co.

Post 12

Saturday, December 12, 2009 - 6:46pmSanction this postReply
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John,

For online debates, one can do worse than to simply refer to the Wikipedia article on the topic, and the source-data links referred to by it. In this case, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Canada , or perhaps http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Canadian_and_American_health_care_systems . Feel free to assume that I'm trumpeting every statistic in which Canada beats the US... especially pointing out that, overall, the health care in Canada and the US is really pretty close to the same, but with Canada only spending 2/3rds per capita to get approximately similar results.

You say that you're unaware of Americans seeking health care in Canada - you might find the article subsection at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Canada#US_citizens_visiting_Canada_to_receive_health_care worth perusing.

You seem to be suggesting that Canada benefiting from medical advances in the US is a "free rider problem". In counter, I suggest that such problems aren't problems at all - if somebody thinks something is worth doing, for their own selfish reasons, then they'll do it, whether or not other people benefit from it. I suppose I could go off on another tangent about the point of patents being to encourage the enrichment of the public domain, so that everyone can benefit from various inventions, but that might be better in a thread in and of itself.


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Saturday, December 12, 2009 - 6:52pmSanction this postReply
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John,

I'm confused. When did I say that it was moral to initiate force? Whether or not I'm an Objectivist, I also consider myself a libertarian, as I consider the initiation of force a very good standard of where to draw the moral line. I've gone up and made lists of which acts, currently considered crimes, involve the initiation of force, and which don't, so that I can better understand what is ethical but illegal - actions which would be appropriate for somebody practising civil disobedience to knowingly break the law performing.

(Edit: fixed 2 minor typos)
(Edited by Daniel Eliot Boese on 12/12, 10:47pm)


Post 14

Saturday, December 12, 2009 - 8:20pmSanction this postReply
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Re: "The ideal political-economic system is laissez-faire capitalism. It is a system where men deal with one another, not as victims and executioners, nor as masters and slaves, but as traders, by free, voluntary exchange to mutual benefit. It is a system where no man may obtain any values from others by resorting to physical force, and no man may initiate the use of physical force against others. The government acts only as a policeman that protects man’s rights; it uses physical force only in retaliation and only against those who initiate its use, such as criminals or foreign invaders. In a system of full capitalism, there should be (but, historically, has not yet been) a complete separation of state and economics, in the same way and for the same reasons as the separation of state and church."

I don't disagree with this point - however, such a political system is an /ideal/, and even those current governments which approach closest to that idea - the liberal democracies - fall far short of it, and show no sign of attaining that ideal any time soon. Thus, my approach to politics is somewhat more practical, dealing more with 'is' rather than 'ought', and trying to attain the greatest good for people (my own self in particular) with the tools available to me, even if doing so continues to fall short of that ideal. In most cases, I agree that governmental power should be cut back, to reduce abuses to the minimum possible; it's only in a very few cases, such as arranging payment for health care, where the available evidence has led to my goal of saving and improving lives (especially my own life) overriding my dedication to a particular sort of political system.

Heinlein wrote in "The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress", "A rational anarchist ... tries to live perfectly in an imperfect world. . . aware that his effort will be less than perfect yet undismayed by self-knowledge of self-failure."


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Saturday, December 12, 2009 - 9:50pmSanction this postReply
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Pragmatism


The two points central to the pragmatist ethics are: a formal rejection of all fixed standards—and an unquestioning absorption of the prevailing standards.
-Leonard Peikoff, “Pragmatism Versus America,”


[The Pragmatists] declared that philosophy must be practical and that practicality consists of dispensing with all absolute principles and standards—that there is no such thing as objective reality or permanent truth—that truth is that which works, and its validity can be judged only by its consequences—that no facts can be known with certainty in advance, and anything may be tried by rule-of-thumb—that reality is not firm, but fluid and “indeterminate,” that there is no such thing as a distinction between an external world and a consciousness (between the perceived and the perceiver), there is only an undifferentiated package-deal labeled “experience,” and whatever one wishes to be true, is true, whatever one wishes to exist, does exist, provided it works or makes one feel better.
- Ayn Rand "For the New Intellectual"

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Post 16

Sunday, December 13, 2009 - 7:26amSanction this postReply
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Daniel,

However, I disagree about your conclusion that your item #4 is necessarily distinct from #3. Much like how Jay put it, it's a given that, with present-day technology, it's effectively impossible for any single individual to survive, let alone have a comfortable, enjoyable life, and thus it's in everyone's long-term rational self-interest to have a working society around them which provides them various opportunities for personal advancement ...
But you're saying that egoism (item #4) isn't distinct from utilitarianism (item #3). There are reams of books written about this distinction, however. You can't just collapse these 2 concepts into some murky conglomerate with a few keystrokes. When you say "it's in everyone's long-term rational self-interest to have a working society around them" then you switch the view off of the moral agent and onto the collective. This is how Holocausts have occurred.

The proper thing, morally, to do is to never leave the originating view of the individual moral agent -- to never include the 'herd' when talking about the good. There are 2 reasons for this. One is experiential and it is that you get tripped up. For instance, to make good use of the Hitler analogy, the extermination (or the scientific experimentation on) the gypsies and the physically-imperfect was good for the herd. Thinning out the 'weaker' ones allows the 'herd' to travel at a faster pace. This utilitarian thinking justifies the mass-murder that occurred.

But mass-murder isn't moral. So, via Modus Tollens, I can show that utilitarianism isn't moral (or morally good).

Morality is about life and value, and massacre is against life and value (so moralities justifying massacres are wrong).
Utilitarianism justifies massacres.
****************
Therefore, utilitarianism is wrong.

[or (edit) more formally]:
The moral proposition "p" (utilitarianism) implies "q" (mass murder) as a moral proposition.
But "q" is not moral (or "true" -- as a moral proposition).
**************
Therefore, "p" is not moral (or "true" -- as a moral proposition). 
[end edit]

And the other reason is more philosophical, it's because the valuing agent isn't just the first cause of morality, but the final end of it, too. I think that you would agree that, for morality to exist, there would have to be a valuing agent capable of choosing alternative courses of action in its life. The next philosophical step is to remember that morality is a natural, individual need, and not something merely wanted. Understanding morality like you understand food intake (as essential for human life), you would understand how personal it is.

As we cannot digest food in a 'collective stomach' -- so, too, we cannot successfully use morality collectively. When utilitarians use morality collectively, they use it as a floating abstraction -- tossing out the base of morality, the individual (and her life choices), and looking toward the herd with Utopian zeal. Morality, for utilitarians, is a stolen concept. Instead of viewing it correctly as a need, they view it incorrectly as a want -- and they end up wanting Utopia and they try to prostitute morality in order to achieve it.

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 12/13, 9:03am)


Post 17

Sunday, December 13, 2009 - 8:01amSanction this postReply
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Daniel

For online debates, one can do worse than to simply refer to the Wikipedia article on the topic, and the source-data links referred to by it. In this case, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Canada , or perhaps http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Canadian_and_American_health_care_systems . Feel free to assume that I'm trumpeting every statistic in which Canada beats the US... especially pointing out that, overall, the health care in Canada and the US is really pretty close to the same, but with Canada only spending 2/3rds per capita to get approximately similar results.

You say that you're unaware of Americans seeking health care in Canada - you might find the article subsection at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Canada#US_citizens_visiting_Canada_to_receive_health_care worth perusing.


I'm not going to chase down a bunch of links you throw up, tell me in what way Canada is better than the United States in health care? That Canada spends less per capita is not an indication of better health care. Cuba also spends less than the United States on health care. But how little money is spent on health care is not indicative of quality health care. Canada also does not have similar results as the United States. The United States has a higher cancer survivability rate than Canada. Which you appear to have ignored this entirely from my previous post.

You seem to be suggesting that Canada benefiting from medical advances in the US is a "free rider problem".


Well it's not a "problem" for the Untied States that Canada makes virtually no innovations in pharmacology or medical technology. It's actually Canada's problem. It's indicative of a system that robs the incentive to innovate. So Canada can only pat itself on the back for the level of medical technology and pharmacology it has because of what the United States has been able to produce. Much like the Soviet Union did, Canada is merely parasitically living off of the United State's ability to innovate.

I'm confused. When did I say that it was moral to initiate force?


Then allow me to alleviate your confusion. You said you are for government funded health care. This means forcibly taking from some men to give to other men. That is what constitutes an initiation of force, it's nothing less than looting.

Whether or not I'm an Objectivist, I also consider myself a libertarian


Well consider yourself a hypocrite then. And a suspected troll.
(Edited by John Armaos on 12/13, 8:03am)


Post 18

Saturday, December 12, 2009 - 10:50pmSanction this postReply
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Well, Ted, since I do believe in objective reality, and that there is a difference between the external world and consciousness, and that the truth is not a popularity contest, I can't really think of anything in your post that applies to any of the topics in this thread that I can really respond to.

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Sunday, December 13, 2009 - 8:28amSanction this postReply
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Daniel,

Folks get huffy and puffy around here because they've earned hard knocks, and then some "Mr. Up-and-comer" like yourself crashes the forum with no less than a "universal" symbol for an avatar and a carefree but evidently goading attitude.

With whatever faculty or capability I have in the matter, I apologize for the way in which you have, heretofore, been treated. That said, would you care to answer my direct responses to you, both here (post 16) and in the ClimateGate thread?

It's one thing for me to give you the benefit of the doubt, because you're new, as folks here rhetorically attack (read: criticize) you -- but quite another if history shows that you do, in fact, avoid or evade real debates with someone who is currently in possession of the patience and cordiality to take you at your word and to task, and to engage you on your own terms.

In other words, I just defended you -- are you going to blow me off, too?

Ed



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