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Friday, November 1, 2013 - 7:27amSanction this postReply
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We discuss geopolitics and that includes military options for the defense of the nation.  It is a primary assumption that the government has a direct and moral role in the operation of armed forces to protect the people from foreign invasion.  It seems to me that we too easily accept the assumptions of the mystics and looters that to defend against force you need more force of the same kind, rather than some other - totally different - response.  We also fail to pursue active lines of thought about pre-emptive actions (apart from military invasion). 

In the "Just Got Here" topic thread, Fred Bartlett wrote:  It is a wonder that we won that war. The Germans had the potential of a totally effective air superioroty advantage, but couldn't/didn't produce them in the numbers or rate needed to assert that superioroty. We out-attritioned them.

The Germans never could have won World War II despite their rockets, jets, and three different atomic bomb projects.  To think otherwise is to grant efficacy to mysticism.  American and the UK with their (ahem "allies") won that war because bad thinking defeats even worse mental actions, mental activities so bad that they cannot be called "thinking." 

Fred forcused on the efficiency of German jet engines versus English.  But the English were not in the practice of arresting their own scientists for political opinions - and the Germans and Russians both did just that.  The same speaks to the success of the American Manhattan project.  General Groves kept the FBI away because he knew that intellectual freedom is more than just choosing machine tolerances.  

Still, it was not the best way to prosecute a war. The horrors of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were unnecessary. 

It is difficult to argue "what if."  Discussing the Civil War, a science fiction realist pointed out that we cannot say what would have happened if Lincoln had not been assassinated because we all grew up in a world where he was. We are like fish imagining a world without water.  My response is that  imagine we can and do because we are not fish, granted the warning that "what if" must be grounded in what we do know.


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Friday, November 1, 2013 - 8:43amSanction this postReply
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The Germans never could have won World War II despite their rockets, jets, and three different atomic bomb projects. To think otherwise is to grant efficacy to mysticism.
That's wrong. The German culture was part mysticism and part science/engineering/production. To treat that culture as all mysticism is a fallacy.

And, that statement that the Germans could never have won the war ignores the fact that change is, by its nature, a thing expressed over time. The mystical foundation of the German culture might not have caused a collapse till AFTER Germany had won the war.

Simplistic thinking is rarely helpful.
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The horrors of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were unnecessary.
Pure opinion, no facts. If you or your children were slated to be vanguard of an invasion of the Japanese homeland, you might have been able to see the necessity, IF you valued the lives of the Americans that would have been lost in the continued fighting. Some people add up the lives on one side and see if the number is greater than the lives lost of the other side... as if the lives of the aggressor are equal in value to lives of those defending themselves. How can anyone not say that isn't a horrible kind of moral relativism?

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Friday, November 1, 2013 - 1:09pmSanction this postReply
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"Fred forcused on the efficiency of German jet engines versus English."

By 'focused' and 'versus,' would that be where I pointed out they were the same low efficiencies? Jesus, you just totally make this shit up, like words in a f'n blender...

The UK Meteors with the Whittle engines were mechanical monstrosities. The combination of the torturous airflow (they used centrifugal flow compressor/turbine stages and the high speed gearboxes made those engines barely airworthy and the planes they were put in barely flyable. The gearboxes would come apart in flight, creating a cloud of flying shrapnel. They would shoot themselves down, were barely flyable, much less maneuverable.

The allies in their abundan P51s took on the rarer ME262s when they took off or when they landed. The P51 could out turn the faster M262. But the tactic used was to take them on when they were vulnerable; we had far more P51s. In between, the P51s had to rely on their turning advantage, but ... speed kills. The allies -way- outproduced Germany, which is what let them weather that technical superiority. It wasn't only that the Germans couldn't produce enough to make a difference, Hitler also didn't recognize the significance, and placed no emphasis at all on them. It is widely regarded of the one the handful of missed opportunities/dumb moves by Hitler that self-assisted in his defeat.

Mysticism might play well with the Oiiji board folks but had little to do with anything. Of course Hitler was an idiot.

Way more influential was the decision by Beth Steel management during the depression to not lay off its workforce. Instead, it gave the entire workforce 'half jobs.' They implemented the concept of 'shared work' and in so doing, maintained a full scale fully trained skilled workforce that weather the Depression and didn't blow in the wind. When it came time to ramp up production during the late 30s, Beth Steel literally just flipped a switch and instantly came up to full production.

Beth Steel provided an unimaginable % of the heavy armament used in WWII...40%? 50%? 70%? ships..gun bbls, especially heavy gun bbls...armor...munitions...not only the means to wage war in Europe, but the means of heavily transporting the means to Europe. Forget about mysticism... had Beth Steel not had the foresoght to do what the did to weather the Depression with a full scale fully trained workforce, it is hard to imagine an alternate path to winning WWII.

We -outproduced- Germany; that was in spite of their technological advantages in jet fighers, artillery, machine guns, tanks, and rocketry.

Their weaponry was technically superior; the allies countered that by having way more of what they did have, that was hurled at Europe in seemingly endless waves.

Nagasaki and Hiroshima not necessary? Again, one of those academic assertions best imagined presented in those steel plant lockerooms, or in front of all the millions of E1s who were paying the price for waging the war.

regards,
Fred









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Friday, November 1, 2013 - 1:23pmSanction this postReply
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How does 'the government' defeat Germany in WWII without Beth Steels, plural?

Imagine that same Germany today, mysticism flying.

Imagine our government manned by clear thinking rationals, steely eyed men of intellect...without 330,000 mouth breathing, knuckle dragging pollacks at Beth Steel working the furnaces.

Connect those dots. Should be a hoot.

Pointless? Ok. Now imagine Germany is China.

Forget about 'steel mills;' who owns and has owned the major toolsets required to develop submicron electronics these days?

I guarantee you, it aint the lawyers running our government.

Come that war, we going to out-social-media them with our advanced government websites? We going to sick those 3400 webmonkeys at Facebook on them, going to out-marketing data them into submission to avoid a global defeat?

We going to out fly them in jetfighters designed when PONG was state of the art?

Clearly, our trust in government will save the day. Like it saved Ambassador Stevens in Libya. Like it did during the Depression, when it had nothing at all to do with the foresight at Beth Steel.

regards,
Fred

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Sunday, November 3, 2013 - 7:22amSanction this postReply
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What if... what if...  L. Neil Smith's science fiction includes an alternate timeline in which the American Revolution was completely successful. What would that have led to? How would a truly capitalist society have grown through the 19th century, all other things being equal

Would the USA have beaten up Spain for her colonies and annexed Hawaii?  Would the USA have entered World War I?

Just consider that even if our actual Progressives of 1914 had decided to stay out of that war.  Fascism developed in France and Italy, even though they "won" that war. If they had lost and Germany won, easily, we could be sitting here claiming that scientific advances of the Curies and French industrial power would have made France invincible had the USA not accepted her Jewish refugee scientists.

Consider World War One. All of the secret treaties meant that no one knew in advance who would ally with whom. England-Germany-Russia as family ties, against France, Italy, and Austria.

Bismark forced Austria out of the German Confederation, remember. While Austria and Italy had border disputes, they were perhaps not crucial if a wider interest, say in the Balkans were common to keeping Russian pan-Slavism at bay.  While Austria was politically backward, Italy and France were constitutional republics with a nominally free press and nominally free elections.  They had a lot in common and that is as it finally turned out.

So, what would a truly capitalist nation do?  I do not see a capitalist USA involved in World War One.

Given that, then the next question is regardless of the name of the bad guy, what would a capitalist USA have done about World War Two?

The truly capitalist USA would not have experienced a Great Depression, of course.

The truly capitalist USA would not have had colonies in the Philippines and Hawaii for Japan to attack.

The truly limited government of the the truly capitalist USA would not be playing chess in Asia, putting China here when Japan moves there and then playing a gambit. 

When Japan moved on the English and Dutch colonies, the natives did not care much. They learned to care, but they did not exactly yearn for their old colonial administrators. They wanted independence from Japan as from Europe. 

But what would truly capitalist England and truly capital Holland have looked like without political empires?   Remember that imperialism is a financial loss. Power is not just "less efficient" than market. Political power drains market resources.

All in all, it is obvious to me that any truly capitalist nation would be largely immune to any attack, having not provided any pretext for hostility.

Granted the existence of a "mad man" in what would have to be a "mad nation" - which most of Europe was one way or aniother. Look at Switzerland. 
"Everywhere, where the order is to hold, it is the duty of conscience of each fighter, even if he depends on himself alone, to fight at his assigned position. The riflemen, if overtaken or surrounded, fight in their position until no more ammunition exists. The cold steel is next.... The machine-gunners, the cannoneers of heavy weapons, the artillerymen, if in the bunker or on the field, do not abandon or destroy their weapons, or allow the enemy to seize them. Then the crews fight further like riflemen. As long as a man has another cartridge or hand weapon to use, he does not yield. " -- General Henri Guisan (1874-1960), order to Swiss troops, 1940
http://www.swissworld.org

The Swiss government had a decentralised structure, so even the Federal President was a relatively powerless official with no authority to surrender the country. Indeed, Swiss citizens had been instructed to regard any surrender broadcast as enemy lies and resist to the end. ... The main strategy, however, was deterrence rather than fighting. Even though tiny Switzerland had an army of only 430,000 men, Germany never risked invasion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri_Guisan

I cannot remember if this was an actual story or something I dreamed up but image a German invasion of the USA.  We already had guys with machine guns riding around in cars. How about the scene from Casablanca?

Can you imagine the Germans in London?
When you get there, ask me.
Can you imagine the Germans in your own New York?
There's neighborhoods there even I would not go into.

The war turned out the way it did because the nominally free USA and UK defeated the very unfree  Germans and Japanese.  Meanwhile, the USSR took the brunt of the German war effort, again, two socialist countries engaged in mutual slaughter. 

Japan is an island nation.  After Midway, its fate was sealed. The USA could have bottled them up, and never risked an invasion.


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