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Post 20

Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 4:48pmSanction this postReply
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Even the part where you see which of your posts have sanctions is temporary. I intend to clean that up and make it nicer to view.


Joe, may I (respectfully) suggest leaving that as it is, as well as adding some way of seeing which posts have non-sanctions. I'm just thinking that having to check through every one of your postings to see which have sanctions/non-sanctions would be a pain in the ass. Its useful being able to just look it up on your member page.

MH

(Edited by Matthew Humphreys on 3/31, 4:49pm)


Post 21

Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 5:02pmSanction this postReply
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I have a question: When one votes, how many points are awarded? Because the Atlas count seem to go up by 2 whenever I refresh a page after voting.

Post 22

Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 5:09pmSanction this postReply
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I meant temporary, because we're going to make it look better.  It's just a place-holder for now.


Post 23

Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 5:17pmSanction this postReply
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Rodney,

Your voting strength increases with your number of Atlas Icons.


Post 24

Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 5:55pmSanction this postReply
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Sorry Joe!! Reading it again its actually perfectly obvious that thats what you meant!

Post 25

Thursday, April 1, 2004 - 2:10pmSanction this postReply
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I seem unable to locate your explanation of the asterisks beside post titles on biography pages. I know I saw it yesterday. Could you direct me to it?

Post 26

Thursday, April 1, 2004 - 2:36pmSanction this postReply
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Rodney, I'm not sure what you're asking for. Are you looking for the stuff I said yesterday? It's on the first page of this forum. Basically, on your personal page, it has a list of your recent posts (and a link to all of them). Those have '*' next to the posts that got "Sanctions".

Post 27

Thursday, April 1, 2004 - 3:12pmSanction this postReply
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That was it! Thanks.

Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Post 28

Friday, April 2, 2004 - 11:14amSanction this postReply
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Joe,

 

In regards to the symbols to represent negative atlas points.

 

SO I adjusted my thinking to asking what are these points really?  My answer is in a way these points are intellectual money.  It’s a payment we receive from our fellow readers and writers for saying something useful and productive for the cause.  Atlas Points are our currency for intellectual productivity.  If we think of it in this way a world of symbolism opens up to us, the world of the market economy, banking, and business.

            As our Atlas Points are our currency, our membership is our account with the bank of intellectual currency: this site.  As In a good bank, most accounts are in the black (or in the gold) but at times they can drop into the red if the person frivolously spends his currency unwisely.  Perhaps you can draw from that something useful?  Perhaps a red Atlas should track our negative points while the gold atlas tracks out positive points?

            As you already have a running account on the member’s page of what intellectual transactions they have made with the bank (The list of posts and articles).  You have a method of showing with the “*” that there is a positive vote in favor perhaps “~” can be the negative denotation.  Then you can list the positive and negative points with the balance in the place where you already have the Atlas Points listed on the members page.

 

That’s All.

 

Cheers,

 
Eric


Post 29

Friday, April 2, 2004 - 2:39pmSanction this postReply
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Greetings.

I have a question about the techincalities of Atlas Point allocation that involves a hypothetical scenario:

* Let us say that I enjoyed a post by Mr. A and gave him a vote of sanction while I was at Atlas Level 2. (This would have given him 3 Atlas Points). However, I had since risen to Atlas Level 3, where I can award 4 Atlas Points with each sanction. Does Mr. A get awarded an Atlas Point for each of my sanctions ex post facto, simply because my own voting power had increased, or is the value of a given sanction "frozen in time" with regard to the sanctioning member's level?

I am
G. Stolyarov II


Post 30

Friday, April 2, 2004 - 4:00pmSanction this postReply
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The value of the vote is frozen in time. If you gain more voting power, it doesn't affect your previous votes.

Post 31

Monday, April 5, 2004 - 3:48pmSanction this postReply
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This is in response to a post by Rodney on the Kant Can't thread.

Rodney questions the Atlas points system because Daniel and Marc both have zero Atlas Icons.

First point is that the icons are just an indicator. The real issue is the Atlas Points, which show up on the user pages.

As of this moment, Daniel has negative Atlas points, but that's just the sum. His original posts were interpreted by some as very negative and not very constructive. Since he agreed that a vendetta is inappropriate, his posts have become intelligent and very much a positive contribution. Even if you don't agree with what he says all the time, he's made many valid points. He has garnered several Atlas Points in that time. So this is more of starting off on the wrong foot. My interpretation is that the Atlas Point system recognizes when people are being overly-hostile, and punish for that. And when the same people write intelligent posts, they get rewarded. I don't see a problem yet.

Marc, on the other hand, has a positive Atlas Count. He just hasn't reach the first Atlas Icon level. Nor has he posted much since the new site. Even though people seem to disagree with his posts on certainty, he hasn't received any "No Sanction" votes. My interpretation is that people aren't being punished for ideas they disagree with. There are more people wanting to argue the issue then are willing to give it a "No Sanction". So I don't see any problem here either.

I also want to point out that this is an Objectivist site. Marc and Daniel are guests, good guests even, and are even better than some of the so-called Objectivists that we've had. But they are guests. If it turns out that nobody wants to listen to their ideas, I don't have a problem with that. I certainly won't judge the Atlas Point system by whether it attracts non-Objectivists.

Another point is that the Atlas Point system is not about popularity. It's about positive contribution. That's why you currently get Atlas Points for any Gallery item you submit. Stolyarov, for instance has contributed over 100 galleries, which adds significantly to his total level. If Daniel or Marc posted half that many, there'd be no issue of Atlas points for either.

The system may not be perfect. There's a few aspects that haven't worked out how we wanted, and there may be changes in the future. But overall I'm actually pretty happy with the result.






Post 32

Monday, April 5, 2004 - 5:37pmSanction this postReply
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Generally, I now stand persuaded. (I want to emphasize that my problem was not anyone’s “score,” so to speak, but the system as such.) But I have a few more comments:

This reasoning sounds good, assuming people don’t punish on the basis of disagreement. However, I myself have sometimes done so, when I didn’t have the time to compose a proper reply. I like my posts to be carefully written and edited for the most part; but sometimes I felt I had to “say” something, so I voted negatively. Others may do the same, especially newcomers.

Another thing is that, since I don’t think readers will award points for politeness, which ought to be standard, posters will most often get points for being perceived as correct, that is, Objectivist, and lose points only for rudeness. So there are different standards for plus and minus votes.

Maybe it will work out the way you envision, since (a fact I was ignoring) Atlas points are also awarded in other contexts. So I stand persuaded, and am interested to see how it all works out.


Post 33

Monday, April 5, 2004 - 6:43pmSanction this postReply
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Rodney,

I've also given no sanction votes to people I disagree with, although it's somewhat rare. I usually only do it when they say something so stupid, it hurts. Generally I don't do it just because I disagree.

On the flip side, I don't give them out when I agree. I give them out when someone has said something particularly well. I've done that with one of your posts. It's not just that someone says something I agree with, but that I really appreciate their contribution.

Another thing I want to point out is one of the reasons we had the system. Articles that people liked were being left untouched, as were good posts. There was almost no positive feedback. I've had to try to cheer up some of the writers who thought nobody read their stuff, or nobody appreciated it. Occasionally we'd get a comment from someone saying "It's like in that wonderful article such and such wrote". It was shocking to the person who received it. So the positive part of the Atlas' has already been an outstanding success as far as I'm concerned. There's way more positive feedback then there was before.

Now I tried to argue some of the merits of the system, but I recognize some of the flaws. Some people give sanctions to anyone who happens to respond to them, which I don't really like. Quality and contribution don't really matter in that case. Also, some galleries are harder than others to add to, and they should be compensated more.

So we may end up tweaking the system a bit. And if you've got feedback, this is the place for it. Your comments are appreciated. I agree with your current concerns. If it turned into just a popularity contents, it might be worth changing. And I'd rather it not punish people just because they disagree. I still see it as being beneficial at this point. Hopefully we can work out any kinks.

Post 34

Monday, April 5, 2004 - 7:04pmSanction this postReply
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Good points.

Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 3
Post 35

Tuesday, April 6, 2004 - 2:02pmSanction this postReply
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Hello, Joseph.

You stated: 
My interpretation is that people aren't being punished for ideas they disagree with.
Perhaps, but I will note that my Atlas score was cut in half AFTER I had mentioned that I was a Catholic.

That said, I wouldn't recommend any change in the system.  People are going to use this tool you've provided them for good and ill.  (Personally I haven't used them at all, because I prefer to put my name to any comment I care to make.)  So, Atlas points will get abused; but that can bring its own rewards.

For example, if some of the Objectivists have needed to use an anti-sanction against me as though it were a talisman to ward off a hex, I must admit that the thought of hyper-rational, anti-mystical, non-superstitutious Randians doing so brought a smile to my face.

Regards,
Bill a.k.a. Citizen Rat


Post 36

Tuesday, April 6, 2004 - 2:22pmSanction this postReply
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Citizen Rat,

I, for one, consider you a more than welcome contributor to the discussions here, and I consider your postings to exhibit a great deal of reason, even though we may diverge concerning the existence of a Supreme Being.

By the way, check you Atlas Count. The system works :).

I am
G. Stolyarov II


Post 37

Wednesday, April 7, 2004 - 5:14amSanction this postReply
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Mr. Stolyarov:

As always, thank you for your support.  Even if we do not agree on God, we do agree on things you and I can do something about -- namely, opposing the nihilistic trend of modern culture and promoting the morality of capitalism.

Regards,
Bill a.k.a. Citizen Rat


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