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Post 0

Monday, November 29, 2004 - 5:31pmSanction this postReply
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Is this even a question?  C'mon now.  The USA is not perfect, unfortunately, but it is the greatest country on Earth!

Post 1

Tuesday, November 30, 2004 - 8:44amSanction this postReply
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I have not done much traveling, so I do not know Jamaica, Monaco, or New Zealand first hand.  However, I have been to Switzerland.  It is everything that Harry Browne promised!  There are banks on every corner.  My own bank had branches all over town -- and this was a small town.  The place was quiet, neat, orderly -- in short, boring.  Yes, Switzerland has a lot of attractions for a hardworking, intelligent person motivated by the accumulation of wealth.  All it lacks is vigor. 
 
I have lived in Ohio (all over), Michigan (a few places), the Space Coast, Charleston, SC, and Alburquerque.  Working for a robot manufacturer, I traveled to a dozen cities.  All in all, the best thing about America is that it is still the land of opportunity.  Every place changes all the time.  People make things happen here.  As a result, the fabric of society is complex.
 
Taxes are not everything.  I once worked with an Iraqi who said that after a few more projects, he was going back to Syria.  He could not go into business here, he said, because the taxes are too high.  "What?! We have one of the lowest tax rates on Earth!" I said.  "You do not understand," he replied.  "In other counties, the tax collector comes with paper to show you how much you owe and you give him half of that in cash and he goes away.  You cannot do that with your IRS."

What makes a country "libertarian" is the people.  For a case in point from the USA, compare New Mexico and Arizona.  New Mexico has a part-time legislature.  They cannot meet out of session unless the governor calls a special session for a specifically stated reason and they cannot consider any other business.  Sounds great!  Unfortunately, New Mexico is a governmentalist welfare looter state.  Arizona, on the other hand, is vibrant.  Of course, that means that you cannot breath the air in Phoenix. 
 
We all make choices.   So, the bottom line for me is that what makes a country "libertarian" is the choices open to me.  America still offers more choices.


Post 2

Tuesday, November 30, 2004 - 8:48amSanction this postReply
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I haven't voted yet - I need more info in order to make an informed decision.

One key aspect of a libertarian community is a lack of statism. One key aspect of statism is inflation of the currency.

A casual look at inflation rates for the choices available, reveals Switzerland (0.9%) as the winner in this particular battle of the war - though Japan (0.09%) had the lowest inflation rate.

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p.s. I would sincerely enjoy any information on Jamaica and Monaco (not shown below). If you are in possession of such, please be forthcoming.
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.......................1990-1994..........1995-2001............Change

Austria..................3.41......................1.64....................-1.77

Belgium.................2.70......................1.79....................-0.92

Canada...................2.52......................1.80....................-0.72

Finland...................2.85......................1.58....................-1.27

France....................2.42......................1.34....................-1.08

Germany.................3.27......................1.49....................-1.78

Japan......................1.77......................0.09....................-1.68

Netherlands...........2.91.....................2.49.....................-0.41

New Zealand..........2.27.....................1.86.....................-0.42

Norway...................2.60.....................2.33.....................-0.27

Sweden....................5.41.....................1.02....................-4.39

Switzerland............3.56.....................0.90....................-2.66

US........................3.53.....................2.45*....................-1.08*
------------------------------------------------------
Foreign
(19-Country)
Median.................2.91.....................1.86....................-1.05

*Adjusted US
US.........................3.53.....................3.55*..................+0.02*

*US "Boskin/Clinton collaboration" artificially lowered nominal interest rate (changing how they "measure" it), which resulted in a 1.1% lower number. For the purpose of examining trends, only the old measurements (the ones used to generate the old numbers) are valid to put the new numbers in perspective with the old numbers - to see if there is a real increase/decrease.

Ed
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source for OECD rates:
http://www.federalreserve.gov/pubs/ifdp/2003/765/ifdp765.pdf
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Post 3

Tuesday, November 30, 2004 - 5:03pmSanction this postReply
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What is "Sealand"?

Post 4

Tuesday, November 30, 2004 - 5:41pmSanction this postReply
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Jonathan Barrett, here's Sealand.

Post 5

Tuesday, November 30, 2004 - 8:36pmSanction this postReply
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Upon first seeing the poll, my first thought was that it must be one of those countries that I always hear about being freer than the US, like New Zealand, Switzerland or Hong Kong (not technically a country, but a region under a different system from China). I did not want to make an uninformed decision, and after some research and thought, I concluded the US is the closest thing in the world to a libertarian country.
The US is the only country in the world (that I know of) where people have rights AND those rights are natural, or as the Declaration of Independence says "god-given". Where rights come from is something that is suspiciously absent from all other constitutions and declarations. New Zealand, Switzerland and Hong Kong may have a great deal of economic freedoms now, but without any recognition of natural rights by the government or people, they will be much easier to enslave. Since the "Progressive" era began in the 1890's, the US has been on the road to socialism, but still has yet to achieve a 50% total tax rate (last I heard, it was still 47% as Harry Browne describes in his book, and I don't think the Bush tax cuts are going to amount to anything in the long run) while many other industrialised nations have 70% tax rates and did not even take a fraction of that time. I think that shows the difference between simply having a constitution or  any other kind of founding document that says "you have rights" and one that says "you have rights and they are natural/god-given.
If anyone can find a constitution that mentions the people's natural/god-given rights, please post a link or another place I can see it.


Post 6

Tuesday, November 30, 2004 - 10:13pmSanction this postReply
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TOC's 'Navigator' has insisted repeatedly that New Zealand is the freest country on earth. I believe it's about to do so again. Complete nonsense, of course. In many respects it's a lovely place to live, with some truly adorable inhabitants, but the entrenched culture of welfare dependency & Nanny Statism, cultivated by politicians for votes, is way too strong for New Zealand even to get a look in as a contender for the title.

I dealt with this in my 1997 TOC presentation, In the Revolution's Twilight, which you can find at www.freeradical.co.nz

TOC learned nothing from it, nor have they registered the fact that things have gotten worse for freedom since. As long as they can cite "scholarly" think tanks, they think "their" scholarship is unimpeachable, when it's actually bullshit.

Linz

Post 7

Tuesday, November 30, 2004 - 10:29pmSanction this postReply
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Linz, my objective research on inflation rates indirectly confirms your claim re: New Zealand (9 other OECD countries have a lower inflation rate than NZ).

If "mismanaged nations" have higher "inflation of the currency" as the popular quote suggests, then New Zealand is truly a mismanaged nation - though currently not as "mismanaged" as the US.

I was wondering, do you have any info on total government revenue and the GDP for New Zealand? Also, do you have any info on NZ's trade deficit / surplus? Statists can't hide these objective statism benchmarks from their citizens (though Clinton made a go of it, trying nearly every statist trick in the book).

Ed

Post 8

Wednesday, December 1, 2004 - 2:24amSanction this postReply
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Ed - you shouldn't read too much into official inflation rates when they are based on government prohibition of prices moving overall upward beyond a certain level. In New Zealand, prices may move, legally, only within an arbitrary, government-dictated 1-3% band. What utterb rubbish! In a free economy, prices move freely upward & downward according to supply & demand. End of story. Government should have no part of any of it, including what currency folk choose to trade in.

Linz

Post 9

Wednesday, December 1, 2004 - 3:01amSanction this postReply
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The New Zealand government stole $60 billion out of $136 billion GDP - 44%. In USD terms, 42 of 95 billion. But I think you're mistaken attempting to use a statistical measure of freedom. There are many restrictive laws and regulations apart from taxation. For that reason it's hard to say which countries are more free than others. Which laws are worse? For example US gun laws are far less restrictive of the right to bear arms than NZ laws. On the other hand, NZ has a lower drinking age and legal prostitution.
Personally, I voted for New Zealand because we have a better libertarian party. But I'm biased :-)

Post 10

Wednesday, December 1, 2004 - 7:20amSanction this postReply
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I voted other.

 

I would have voted UK if it was up there.

 

I cannot judge countries like USA or Switzerland because I have never lived there.

 

For me Libertarianism also depends heavily upon how free you feel. For example, even if Switzerland has all these great statistics concerning economic freedom, how free do you feel when every citizen has to register with the police?

 

I always felt quite free in NZ when I lived there, which is now over ten years ago, however things have changed.

 

There is a documentary on TV here in the UK, whereby Billy Connolly travels around NZ while he is performing live.

 

He told a very funny story indeed:

 

He said that he likes to smoke a cigar or pipe. When he was in Auckland, he asked where the local tobacconist was. NZ people reacted to him as if he had just asked them where he could commit paedophilia!!! He mimicked a retarded NZ accent, "But you'll get lung cancer!"

 

He replied angrily, "How do you know that I am going to get lung cancer? What are you going to die of then? Red bus disease???" Then he sticks out his tongue and makes a splat noise.

 

This is so very true. I remember experiencing an incredible hostility towards my smoking (even a cigar outside) in NZ when I visited about three years ago.

 

It is true that political correctness of this type exists in many western countries (including the UK) - but only in NZ does every single man, woman and child act like sheep and follow it to the letter.

 

It is this blind conformity of expression and acceptance that can make a country feel very non-libertarian.

 

In the UK it is widely known that the Government can never take such a docile acceptance from the British people as a given. And I find this relationship between Government and the people to be very libertarian.


Post 11

Wednesday, December 1, 2004 - 9:47amSanction this postReply
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Somewhat-compulsive nit-picking, by yours truly ...
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"Taxes are not everything."

Do they NEED to be "everything" in order to be an "important, objective measure" of freedom?
-----------

"So, the bottom line for me is that what makes a country "libertarian" is the choices open to me."

This is too subjective for a thinker such as I - one who'd rather unveil objective principles underlying the socialist human tragedy that has taken over much of the world.

As a retort, I can picture all elite statists and tyrants saying your very words. I cannot, however, picture a tyrant declaring that individuals must always retain 85-90% of the values that they produce or have produced. That would be one potential "bottom line" for me.

There is no valid reason, whether philosophical or strictly empirical, that that maxim should ever be broken. It is precisely the existence of invalid reasons and reasoning, accepted by those who've embraced subjectivity, which has led to the current socialist tragedy in the first place.
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"The US is the only country in the world (that I know of) where people have rights AND those rights are natural ..."

If this is true, then it is all the more an indictment of US policy - and should properly lead to all the more outrage against socialist trends in this nation.
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"Since the "Progressive" era began in the 1890's, the US has been on the road to socialism, but still has yet to achieve a 50% total tax rate (last I heard, it was still 47% as Harry Browne describes in his book, and I don't think the Bush tax cuts are going to amount to anything in the long run) while many other industrialised nations have 70% tax rates and did not even take a fraction of that time."

Again, this does nothing but to further indict the US trend as not only had we acknowledged the objective existence of natural rights, but we have also seen the tragedies which have taken place in other national "experiments" with statism.
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"TOC's 'Navigator' has insisted repeatedly that New Zealand is the freest country on earth."

By what objective measure, or standard, do these otherwise-intelligent, otherwise-objective thinkers stake their claim on? If they cannot answer this question of mine, then they do not deserve intellectual regard on this matter.
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"Ed - you shouldn't read too much into official inflation rates when they are based on government prohibition of prices moving overall upward beyond a certain level."

Linz, regarding reading "too much" into inflation rates - I don't. This is precisely why I asked you for further numbers (because inflation doesn't tell the whole story).

I have created a 4-pronged approach toward evaluative economics which gets around previous limitations in perspective, such as reading "too much" into one rate. The other prongs in my approach will pick up statist forces with unprecedented triangulation. In this case, the effect of price controls, which you mentioned, will show up by examining the 3 numbers (revenue, GDP, trade deficit) which I asked of you, Linz.

I have created a sort of triangulating measure of statist trends. I have done this so that sinister statists such as Clinton, who self-righteously declare that the era of Big Government is over, will be caught and found guilty of their crimes against humanity - ie. guilty of violating the unalienable, natural rights of individuals. Clinton's 8-years of anti-human programs would've been red-flagged by my objective benchmarks of statism - and most of the wrong trends in statism can be proven beyond reasonable doubt in less than 4 years.

Obviously, cultural change is a pivotal aspect to the goal of the progress of Reason, Freedom, etc., but my efforts to objectively quantify trends in statism will serve useful nonetheless. Think about it Linz, there has to be a measure of progress at some point, there has to be - or else we're all flying blind, subjectively "believing" or "dis-believing" political euphemisms such as: "the era of Big Governement is over."

We, informed by objective measures which triangulate statist forces, will be able to objectively ascertain if and when this "era of Big Government is over" (or whether we're getting better or worse over time).
-----------

"But I think you're mistaken attempting to use a statistical measure of freedom. There are many restrictive laws and regulations apart from taxation. For that reason it's hard to say which countries are more free than others. Which laws are worse?"

First of all Philip, thank you for the objective numbers. As to your objections to "using" them, I see an "insight" that is prevalent from Joe, Linz, and yourself; which runs something like this:

Don't read too much into statistical measures of Freedom! Freedom is a much more complex animal than that which your statistical "microscope" can observe!

I understand your caveats. I understand that I've lost some of the heart-warming precision that we all long for (by focusing on trends, and not on the here and now); and I understand that I've lost some of the scrutinizing attention to heart-felt details which we feel compelled to investigate - regardless of a broader, economic perspective (by focusing on "critical mass" observations).

But please understand that I've lost these by aiming to be 100% accurate - ie. by aiming to be "100% right" about trends in statism. I've deliberately upgraded my intellectual considerations to an unimpeachable level - where folks no longer bicker about whether it "feels" like freedom is winning ("The era of Big Government is over." "Taxes are not everything." "So, the bottom line for me is that what makes a country "libertarian" is the choices open to me."), but instead, must give intellect ascent to the brutal fact of objective trends.

Ed

Post 12

Wednesday, December 1, 2004 - 12:36pmSanction this postReply
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Ed, if you want numbers for New Zealand you might try www.nzbr.org.nz www.stats.govt.nz and www.treasury.govt.nz They should offer you as many figures as you could possibly want.

But TOC's/Navigator's disgraceful continuing gold medal for freedom for New Zealand demonstrates the problem with using figures to measure freedom. Not everything that should be measured has a number, and not everything that has a number is worth measuring. TOC uses a compilation of figures from organisations such as Canada's Fraser Instituute and the like to show that, 1) NZ is the freest country in the world, and 2) TOC clearly has no idea how to assess what freedom looks like. You can see all their nonsensical numbers for previous years at the TOC site, and at the Fraser Institute site.

You also said:
I have created a 4-pronged approach toward evaluative economics which gets around previous limitations in perspective, such as reading "too much" into one rate. The other prongs in my approach will pick up statist forces with unprecedented triangulation.
They talk up their own analysis in similar terms. For me, I just love it when someone evaluates their own work in such unprecedently objective terms.


Post 13

Wednesday, December 1, 2004 - 1:01pmSanction this postReply
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It's worth making another point regarding the use of bald GDP/GNP or inflation figures to measure anything.

Echoing George Reisman, the point is that 1)GNP/GDP is not a measure of wealth produced, but only of the quantity of money; and 2) inflation figures rely on an index, the selection of which is highly subjective if not to say arbitrary, one which makes no allowances for example for improvements in quality.

Thus, GDP/GNP figures and inflation figures are as subjective as any other numerical measure you might choose to use.

You can find his arguments in Chapter 15 of his magnificent book Capitalism, which you can find online at www.capitalism.net .


Post 14

Wednesday, December 1, 2004 - 1:32pmSanction this postReply
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Peter, first of all, thanks - truly - for the insightful comments.  There is a hint in the tone of your response which leads me to believe that you  may be surprised that I would appreciate your criticisms.  If you (or anyone else reading this) is surprised that I have embraced this criticism with welcoming arms, then you still don't "get it."  If this is true, then you are operating on a shallow "I'm more right than you" standard, rather than a "Let's use our minds to discover & thwart statism" standard. 

Peter, you mention inherent problems with GDP and inflation rates.  My deliberate focus on trends - rather than on isolated numbers - dismisses much, if not all, of these criticisms.  But let me ask you, if you are aware of the limitations (if you know how to "know better" - if you know that there are better numbers that we currently don't use, etc.), then do you think that these limitations can, with work, be transcended?  Or do you think that folks should just throw their hands up in subjective belief or disbelief of current "expert opinion?" 

p.s. thank you for the links too, Peter

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 12/01, 1:33pm)


Post 15

Wednesday, December 1, 2004 - 1:48pmSanction this postReply
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Marcus,

In the UK it is widely known that the Government can never take such a docile acceptance from the British people as a given. And I find this relationship between Government and the people to be very libertarian.
These would be the same "British people" that docily voted Blair and his control freaks into two consecutive 170+ seat majorities, right? ;-)

(That said, I guess there wasn't much of an alternative)

MH



Post 16

Thursday, December 2, 2004 - 2:18amSanction this postReply
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Matthew,

 

"These would be the same "British people" that docily voted Blair and his control freaks into two consecutive 170+ seat majorities, right? ;-)"

 

Blair’s first term was not so invasive with respect to individual liberty and taxes as his second term.

 

If Hague had got in, he may have also implemented similar policies to Blair anyway.

Remember his pledge? "We will spend pound for pound the same amount on public services as the Labour Government."

 

For all the annoying left-wing policies of Blair, he still is for all intents and purposes trying to project the image of a conservative-style Government. That actually proves, that even after all these years of socialism, conservatism is still a huge vote winner in the UK.

 

What seems to be clearly on the cards for the next election is that Labour will win with only with the narrowest of majorities. I don’t think voters will be docile in that respect.


Post 17

Thursday, December 2, 2004 - 3:06amSanction this postReply
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I trust you guys will be doing the right thing and voting UK Independence Party.

Tony Blair is going to step down, or be forced out, sometime over the next five years. That means Gordon Brown will step in, and, although I am perhaps rather one-eyed, I cannot believe that he will be anything but universally hated - much like John Major.

That will give the dreadful Conservatives their opportunity.

It is therefore a matter of urgency that the Tories get smashed in the upcoming election, and that UKIP does well. In the ideal world I would like to see the Conservatives so demoralised that half of them leave and start up a new party along classical liberal lines with a repackaged UKIP. At the very least, it is essential that the Conservatives get absolutely nowhere as long as they remain the toadying, spineless scumbuckets that they are.


Post 18

Thursday, December 2, 2004 - 7:45amSanction this postReply
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Marcus,

Like I said, there wasn't much of an alternative. My guess is a Hague government would've been somewhat less invasive, if only because they campaigned heavily against the emerging nanny state tendencies in the early Blair regime. That said, the Major government was of course also very invasive in certain respects (weakening an arrested suspect's right to silence, Home Secretary Howard's piece of crap public order legislation etc). As for the next election, sure Blair's almost definitely going to loose a whole heap of seats, but that could just mean the Liberal Democrats making big gains.

Tim,

As things stand I'm torn between UKIP and the Tories. Both have big pros and big cons.

MH


Post 19

Thursday, December 2, 2004 - 10:57amSanction this postReply
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Just got my Navigator. Here's the last sentence of its feature article, "The Freedom Olympics" (there's an Olympic cyclist on the cover):

"Therefore, as in years past, the gold medal in this year's Freedom Olympics goes to New Zealand."

Hahahaha!

The *really* funny part is how they've *not* put that conclusion up in lights. No photo of a kiwi captioned as a "symbol of freedom" or anything similarly fatuous. It's as though they're shamed of their conclusion & fearful of the derision it will attract, as it has in the past. As well they might be.

Fuckwits.

Linz

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