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Post 20

Sunday, January 30, 2005 - 11:10amSanction this postReply
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I agree with Adam and Linz. "Bullshit" is what you think when you take those tests. I took one years ago, and my main memory of it was that it was full of questions that were just false alternatives. You can't identify when your main tool is a logical fallacy.




Post 21

Sunday, January 30, 2005 - 6:34amSanction this postReply
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Thanks, Jeff.



Post 22

Sunday, January 30, 2005 - 1:03pmSanction this postReply
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Well I apologise to Adam and Linz for starting this debate again with my initial question.  It appears there is no hope for me as an objectivist as I tested INFP which makes me a mystical healer altruist or something.....!   Perhaps I should keep that quiet before I am excommunicated?   I'll try again and fake my responses this time.



Post 23

Sunday, January 30, 2005 - 1:36pmSanction this postReply
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In 1971, as a college freshman, I was required to take three separate, but back to back, tests to measure my aptitude for different career paths. When I was called in to review the results, I was told they couldn't tell me anything about myself because I was inconsistent on all three tests. In other words, I was consistently inconsistent. Sounds pretty consistent to me. I think it was more of my being a square peg that didn't fit into their round hole.

I've taken many such tests since and I always take the results with a grain of salt. I've even learned how to answer to get the results I want. I was given one such test when I was being considered for a sales job. I answered the questions as I thought they would match a sales personality (answering correctly would just show me to be inconsistent, after all). I was called in by the sales manager who was delighted with my results and offered me the job. I declined the offer.




Post 24

Sunday, January 30, 2005 - 1:43pmSanction this postReply
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I remember taking one of those "aptitude" tests in high school.  It recommended everything from being an Embalmer to a Fashion Buyer.  Um, yeah.



Post 25

Sunday, January 30, 2005 - 2:59pmSanction this postReply
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We can all find fault with the study of archetypes, for different reasons, depending on our temperament:

NT's will find that it isn't precise enough and lacks the proper empirical evidence.
NF's will find that it's too limiting and dehumanizing to define people as mere "types."
SJ's will be uncomfortable that it doesn't have the academic seal of approval.
SP's will find it too theoretical, with no real purpose.

So there's something in Myers-Briggs for all of us to hate!  Understanding Personality Types, Temperament, and Archetypes can be a useful tool for some, and worthless to others.  Certainly, if it strikes anyone as nonsense, they should just ignore it and move on.

Ayn Rand's use of Archetypes has been very helpful for me in better understanding the people I work with.  With only a few facts, I can see which colleagues fall into the category of the Second Hander archetype.  On a larger scale, the archetypes of Attila and the Witch Doctor manifest themselves time and time again.  Add to this list Aristotle's Noetics, Myers-Brigg's Artisans and Guardians ...and you have a way to better understand a variety of types.

The Myers-Brigg's Personality Type Indicator is unfortunately terribly flawed.  But taking the test is only scratching the surface of what the study of Temperament is really all about.  It isn't hard science, but when all is said and done, it does hit on some general truths about personality. 




Post 26

Sunday, January 30, 2005 - 4:26pmSanction this postReply
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So does flipping a coin - fifty per cent of the time, in fact.



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Post 27

Sunday, January 30, 2005 - 5:52pmSanction this postReply
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Bob Palin wrote:

> In 1971, as a college freshman, I was required to take three separate, but back to back, tests to measure my aptitude for different career paths. When I was called in to review the results, I was told they couldn't tell me anything about myself because I was inconsistent [...]

Bob, I was a freshman at the University of Michigan the same year and I also remember taking a three hour test filled with many hundreds of crazy questions like: "Do you prefer cooked or raw carrots?". From this, they believed they could measure not only my IQ, Creativity and Drive, but also predict how well I would do in eight different professional arenas. The guidance counselor called me in to discuss the results and made an effort to steer me away from my chosen profession of architecture into engineering since I had scored low in the Creativity category. Fortunately, I was self-confident enough to shrug all this off and continue on the correct path, but I often wondered what happened to those many other individuals who, at 18, did not have as clear a vision of where they were headed in life? I also wonder about this every time I hear about an engineering failure!

These are examples of how everything from IQ to Myers-Briggs test results can and are used in a totally improper way. Information gleaned from tests of this type can sometimes provide insightful trend data for a large group of people, but will most assuredly fail miserably if you attempt to reduce it down to unique individuals. People with a collectivist mentality see individuals as replaceable cogs and are very susceptible to this type of mistake. As individualists, we have to knowingly guard against these errors, but there is no need to conduct a wholesale dismissal of these tools just because they can be used incorrectly in the wrong hands.

I agree with the arguments that Eric Scott makes in his two previous posts. I believe he is demonstrating how to properly use the insights he has gained from reading this literature.

The question I have for the naysayers is, when you read the descriptions of the NT or SP types, do you actually put them in the same category as the meaningless generalities of astrological predictions, or do you see some useful descriptions of different human behavior which you can map to different people in the real world? Regardless of how you test, as you read about the various types, do you see some or one that you most closely identify with and other ones that seem alien to you? Does the description of the INTJ seem to describe what you know about Ayn Rand or do you see her fitting into one of the other categories? I ask these questions with all sincerity, as I am interested in trying to separate out the issue of testing applicability to individuals (something for which I see no evidence to support) from the issue of what sort of psychologically viable, and therefore useful insights might be present here.

Regards,

Jeff

(Edited by C. Jeffery Small on 1/30, 5:54pm)

(Edited by C. Jeffery Small on 1/30, 5:56pm)




Post 28

Sunday, January 30, 2005 - 10:03pmSanction this postReply
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I think that for the most part your MBTI results stay the same... 

You might have times where your life situation brings out the contrasting dimensions of your normal personality, but I think that on the whole you generally equilibrate back to your balance point, or what is for you, your balance point.  That is, unless some major event seriously warps you permanently, in terms of your basic life mode.




Post 29

Monday, January 31, 2005 - 5:34amSanction this postReply
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Where is ENTJ?

When I took this many years ago I scored as ENTJ although I was just barely an "E: rather than an "I".

Ed




Post 30

Wednesday, February 2, 2005 - 8:51amSanction this postReply
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Ed,

eNTj (field marshall) has been mistyped as eBTh in the poll question.

(Edited by Gordon Ellis on 2/02, 8:52am)




Post 31

Wednesday, February 2, 2005 - 4:56pmSanction this postReply
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Thank you Gordon!

That helps !

Cheers!

Ed




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Post 32

Friday, February 4, 2005 - 2:08pmSanction this postReply
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Meyers-Briggs differs from horoscopes in an important way.  A horoscope says "tell me what day you were born, and I'll tell you what you're like."  Meyers-Briggs says "fill out this survey that asks what you're like and I'll tell you what you're like."  As such, I don't think it is bullshit.  And it may be helpful sometimes to have a "shorthand" for describing the way a person is.

I am not sure that psychological labeling is ultimately that useful, though.  Saying "he acts that way because he's an ISTJ" is just saying "he acts that way, because that's the way he acts."  A person has trouble paying attention in class; he is diagnosed with ADD, and suddenly we can say, "Ah, THAT'S why he behaves that way!  It's because he has ADD, which is defined as the condition that causes people to have trouble paying attention!"




Post 33

Monday, February 7, 2005 - 10:56pmSanction this postReply
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Who are the INTP's in here... besides me? 

Stand up and be counted.  I'm curious.




Post 34

Tuesday, February 8, 2005 - 8:34amSanction this postReply
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Proud to be INTP



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Post 35

Tuesday, February 8, 2005 - 9:06amSanction this postReply
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Ha!  That explains a lot... *S*



Post 36

Saturday, February 12, 2005 - 10:49pmSanction this postReply
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Hey, I'm just like Ayn Rand. Ha ha! I don't remember the part in The Fountainhead where Howard took the Briggs-Meyers test. I can't believe Ayn Rand would have taken this test either; I'd imagine her scoffing at it much like Adam Reed did.


(Edited by Eddie Wood on 2/12, 10:50pm)




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Post 37

Wednesday, July 13, 2005 - 9:15amSanction this postReply
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I am an INTP -- most days, anyway. :-)

I have a lot more to say about Myers-Briggs (the personality test), but I'll save it for another time.

The one thing that I think would be fascinating would be to find out how the "bullshit" assessment of the MBTI correlates with type assessment by the MBTI.

In other words, for instance, do INTJs tend to think the MBTI is "bullshit" and the INTPs tend to think it is not? That's what it looks like to me. A new poll...?

I'd better close now, or I'll start blurting out everything I know (or think I know!) about personality type. <g>

Best to all,
Roger Bissell




Post 38

Saturday, July 23, 2005 - 12:12pmSanction this postReply
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Your Type is
ESTJ


ExtrovertedSensingThinkingJudging
Strength of the preferences %
1257544

ESTJ type description by D.Keirsey
ESTJ type description by J. Butt


Qualitative analysis of your type formula

 You are:
  • slightly expressed extrovert


  • moderately expressed sensing personality


  • distinctively expressed thinking personality


  • moderately expressed judging personality

This is my test score the people that use to work under me use to call me Black Hitler!

Is this test Bullshit? 

Every day on the job was a calculated war of minds I would prepare mentally for the next days war and always went to work well rested.

Knowing that the slackers were looking for loopholes to get out of work!


I was getting 83 warehouses pulled and set and delivering all the out bound loads before going home.

The average crew was only getting 25 wharehouses a turn.

I got tired and bumped on a job riding in a caboose to Chicago and Back to Gary .

But no matter what job I went on the company gave me the work in the Gary Sheet and tin mill because I was geting the work done of 3 engines which they pulled off saving the company mega bucks.

I then gave up my forman rights and became a helper is was not worth it.

When I retired in 1988 at age 38 the company lost the work in about 1 1/2 years to trucks because they would not put the engines on to service the mill as they ordered cars in and out.

They did not want to cut their profit margin.

They should have had some way to guage the capacity in a meaningful way of people who wanted leadership positions in most cases the individuals without problem solving abilities got the promotions.

When most of the rich kids came to work they always wound up on my job for me to train the job now requires a college degree but that still is not what it takes.

One such individual is now on the National Transportation Safety Board in Chicago.

For the most part you had to be a quick thinker and be able to make life and death decisions  in a second I don't think any book can teach anyone this and living a sheltered life should be reason for disqualification from some jobs.

Some of the best workers were farm boys city boys were sad sacks when it came to work.



(Edited by Silas Geronimo Sconiers on 7/23, 1:49pm)

(Edited by Silas Geronimo Sconiers on 7/23, 9:20pm)




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