RoR: Forum

Could we get some more options here?

I mean, I know it's slanted but how about - is lying about the affair and lying about it's role in the split between the Brandens and Ayn Rand - is that ethical?

Or - less slanted...

The affair itself was a personal matter, but the deception afterwards was a public matter.

Post 1

Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 6:02pm

I also would like more options. The way this is drawn up, it reminds me of an old yes-no question: Do you still beat your wife? With either answer you admit to wife beating.

How about adding two more options?:

Probably morally right for Ayn and morally wrong for Nathaniel.
Probably morally right for Nathaniel and morally wrong for Ayn.

At least that way the Randroids can participate.

Michael

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 2/22, 6:04pm)

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 2/22, 6:06pm)

Post 2

Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 7:03pm

I did not vote.

"Refresh me again on that whole right-wrong thing. It's kind of fuzzy."
Dr. Peter Venkman in Ghostbusters.

Post 3

Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 11:32pm

Why exactly was this brought up as a poll? I agree that the questions pigeonhole those who choose to answer (which I will not).

Has this subject not been discussed ad nauseum?

Post 4

Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 3:27am

Jennifer -- Hear! Hear!

Barbara

Post 5

Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 5:35am

To be honest, the subject of the affair has been discussed, not only ad nauseam, but ad infinitum. However, the morality of the affair has not been discussed at all, as far as I have read or can tell. (caveat: as always, I could be wrong). I voted yes, for the reason that I don't feel there are a lot of situations where affairs are necessary, honest, or make anyone feel better about themselves. They are generally self-destructive (as it definitively can be argued in this case), hurt others that we are supposed to value, and add an air of dishonesty and scandal to an otherwise impeachable character. Full disclosure, however, I have some kind of reflexive, emotional anti-affair "bug" that I have not properly explored the roots of yet, but I feel that my argument stands on its own merits notwithstanding.

Post 6

Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 6:24am

As for the morality of participating in a love triangle with the full knowledge and approval of all participants - I've got more chance of winning the lottery... thrice! So as if irrelevant weren't bad enough, the whole debate has now become *boring*.

No offense, but I'm too busy trying to get a sex-life of my own to care about Ayn Rand's sex life. And as a matter of fact, when I last had a sex life, I was too busy having fun to care about Ayn Rand's sex life.

As a matter of convenience could we not pigeonhole the entire debate to one (hopefully small) area of SOLOHQ? It makes it easier for me to ignore that way.

Post 7

Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 8:02am

If I was not interested in The Affair before, you guys now get me hooked!

Anyway, I voted for "Don't know enough information to say" (but of course!).

However, I may be able to place my judgement based on probably one thing:

What would Ayn Rand feel if she was in Frank or Barbara's shoes? Or if Frank had developed a legitimate love affair like that between Ayn and Nathaniel, what would be Ayn's reaction? What would be her action?

(Edited by Hong Zhang on 2/23, 8:03am)

Post 8

Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 9:23am

Oops - I answered wrong! I meant to answer "A - Yes" instead of "B". I was going to reply "not enough info to answer", but honestly, I just took the names out. Forget the situation or who was involved, is an affair ever okay? My response would be no, because my thoughts are always that if you want to date someone else or even have a fling, at least have the guts to end your current relationship first. Keeping it a secret b/c your sig other might not approve? There's a first clue that it might be wrong... I'm sure everyone gets tempted and many might succumb, doesn't make it right.

-Elizabeth

Post 9

Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 2:02pm

Breaking the matter down as public or privately moral/immoral does not make sense to me. I voted that it was not moral.

Both parties were married and remained married during the entire affair. While no fan of marriage, as a promise, they both made liars of themselves. And if Frank and Barbara honest to goodness gave their blessings, I hope their self-esteems improved at some point thereafter.

The affair and ridiculous rationalizations afterwards make it clear that regardless of the strength of intellect, everyone can be biased, be in love, make bad decisions, and then seek to figure out a way to call them kosher. Don't make it so, tho'.

The ARI still denies that an affair ever happened, isn't that correct?

Post 10

Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 2:05pm

It is very weird that's it's a poll question, when Barbara Branden is right here cyberly amongst us....

I hope I'm not the subject of a poll question any time soon....and if I am, vote for my side. Thank you, and drive safely...

Post 11

Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 3:42pm

Scott,

I saw "Ayn Rand: A Sense of Life" and, in it, Leonard Peikoff did briefly speak about the affair between Nathaniel Branden and Ayn Rand.

Post 12

Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 3:47pm

Yes to those who said this has been beaten to death both ad infinitum and ad nauseum on some of the other threads here recently. For those who missed it, go find "The Passion of Barbara Branden" thread.

I voted yes -- immoral, for all concerned and for reasons I made clear elsewhere and won't elaborate on or debate further.

But to say that certain actions were "immoral" does NOT mean I regard the people involved as "immoral." That latter is a generalization about the totality of a person's character; and I regard all those ensnared in that mess as generally very moral people, who in that instance behaved quite "out of character," and certainly not at their best.

Post 13

Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 4:01pm

Hong,

It's totally off topic, but your English has improved astonishingly since you first started posting here. You're making incredibly rapid progress!

Yours,
Duncan

Post 14

Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 4:04pm

It is very weird that's it's a poll question, when Barbara Branden is right here cyberly amongst us....

I have to echo Lee's sentiments here. I realize this is a matter of public record and debate, and of Objectivist history itself, but there is a point when such a discussion is in poor taste.

Call me whatever names you like for being too "PC," or whatever you choose as the moniker du jour, but I find such discussions equivalent to gossiping about a person right in front of his or her face. Barbara has been a tremendous sport about this to date, but she has far more patience than I, and mine has run out.

If you want to talk about affairs, at least do it from an abstract perspective, and have a little courtesy for the involved persons when they share a forum with you.

Post 15

Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 3:37pm

About being married...

Penn Jillette - the louder, taller half of the comedy magic team of Penn & Teller - has made the point that 'breaking the vows' depending on what the vows were. Not everyone has the same views of either sexual or even romantic exclusivity. People get married for a variety of reasons, and people change over time.

Married people sleeping with people who they aren't married to isn't immoral, per se. I'd have to know more, but frankly it's none of my business generally speaking.

In the case of the Rands and the Brandens, it seems that - immoral, moral or amoral - it was a hurtful situation that was caused by smart people trying to convince themselves and their partners that somehow this situation would work out well for everyone. I don't think any of them knew any better, because it's not a situation that comes up often for most people. Was the outcome predictable? Yeah, I guess...but it's easy to Monday morning quarterback someone else's life.

Post 16

Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 5:43pm

Penn got married.... damn!

Post 17

Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 7:13pm

Duncan,
Geez, thanks for that. Judging from how good you made me feel, I promise that from now on I will be more generous with my positive comments to others too.

But it seems that your attempt at switching the focus of this thread has been in vain. Unless...unless..."Hong is having an affair with [insert name here]!" Nah, I guess nobody would care! ;-)

(Edited by Hong Zhang on 2/23, 7:35pm)

Post 18

Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 8:27pm

Ms. Iannolo,

Are you passing moral judgment on those of us who are discussing this event, something important to the history of this philosophy? I guess I am confused, and I do have to say that it would seem that

A) Ms. Branden is a intelligent, well-spoken woman, and can therefore ask us to stop if she so chooses

B) That gossiping to someone's face doesn't really seem like gossip and

C) This discussion has de facto turned into an abstract idea.

Just because you're talking about and using an example around someone doesn't make it wrong. I guess I AM calling you too PC. (Respectfully, of course).

Post 19

Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 9:07pm