About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadBack one pagePage 0Page 1Page 2


Post 40

Thursday, June 2, 2005 - 8:59amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Robert,

That was one hell of an essay you wrote.  Have you considered posting it (or a Reader's Digest condensed version of it) as an article on Solo?  I don't have bonking privileges on your blog


Kat

(Edited by katdaddy on 6/02, 9:07am)


Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Post 41

Thursday, June 2, 2005 - 10:38amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
"...bonking privileges"???

Ah...er...don't you think we ought to keep this conversation private, so the Colonel doesn't see it?

;^)

Seriously, Kat, thanks so much for the kind words about the essay. It is a long piece, probably far too long for posting on SOLO, though it has been reprinted by at least one other website. I had a devil of a time writing it, but now that it's done, it is giving my ideological adversaries hell.

Muuuu--wah ha ha!


Post 42

Thursday, June 2, 2005 - 5:58pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Robert B:

Nathan said of me...
I can see that you're proceeding from the belief in the fixed nature of criminals.

No I don't. That is the opposite of my view.

My actual opinions on this topic are no secret. [Summary snipped.] Let's back up for a minute.

 

Perhaps so.

But you based your disagreement with me upon what I wrote in my post. It does not seem unreasonable that I should base my conclusions upon what you wrote in your post.

You said:

"Rand said that the nature of an entity will determine what it will do."

and

"For a dose of reality on whether criminals can be rehabilitated -- or even simply 'habilitated' -- then besides my own book, I'd recommend Stanton E. Samenow's classic Inside the Criminal Mind."

Is it unreasonable to infer from those a belief that criminals can't change?
Yet it's clear that those choosing to comment here on what they construe to be my views have not yet bothered to avail themselves of anything I've written, linked to or mentioned, not even the essay on retribution. (If they had, they couldn't be saying the things they're saying.)

So let me sign off now, inviting anyone who would care to learn my actual views on this topic to go check them out. The links are in my preceding posts on this thread.

Added up, the stack of books recommended in my month here must be close to two feet tall. You can imagine that were I to read everything presented before responding to a post, I would never post.

Nevertheless, I did read your essay. Is there anything in particular you think applies to the question at hand?

Nathan Hawking


Post 43

Friday, June 3, 2005 - 9:27amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Aha! - if you're not reading the books [slow reader?], how can you really understand the problems, let alone possibly given solutions?

Sanction: 3, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 3, No Sanction: 0
Post 44

Saturday, June 4, 2005 - 2:09amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I'm only now catching up with this thread (scandalous I know...), but I think the goal of criminal justice is upholding the rights of innocent people. Theories of retribution, restitution where appropriate, etc are all basically suggestions for a guiding principle as to how the system as a whole should go about achieving that goal.

MH


Post 45

Saturday, June 4, 2005 - 6:14amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Matthew, you are correct. That is why restitution (by the criminal) should be primary — it is the only way of at least minimally undoing the wrong that was done. Retribution does nothing towards that end. It might possibly, in some roundabout way, serve to forestall future wrongs but it certainly doesn't uphold or protect the rights of innocent people.

Post 46

Sunday, June 5, 2005 - 5:55amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Rick,

Thanks for the acknowledgement.

I'm not sure that your argument for restitution necessarily follows though: the goal is to uphold the rights of innocent people, so the system ought to retaliate for the violation (on behalf of the innocent victim) in an effort to deter future violators. In cases such as petty theft, restitution might work, but surely more serious crimes require proportionately stronger retaliation.

Of course the actual court process should also be seen in terms of protecting the rights of the innocent, in establishing strong procedural rights for any individual accused of a crime (ideally, preventing any innocent people from wrongful violation of their rights). I entirely endorse Scott's concerns on that note earlier in the thread.

My essential point though, is that none of the options given in the poll are in themselves the goal of criminal justice; but are really means to, or aspects of, that goal.

MH

(Edited by Matthew Humphreys on 6/05, 6:02am)

(Edited by Matthew Humphreys on 6/05, 6:03am)


Post 47

Sunday, June 5, 2005 - 9:35amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I vote for: Protection of myself and that which I value. I would also call this end "deterrence/prevention" so I voted for #1.

Retribution and restitution are the means to this end.

Post 48

Sunday, June 5, 2005 - 5:59pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Matthew H:

I'm not sure that your argument for restitution necessarily follows though: the goal is to uphold the rights of innocent people, so the system ought to retaliate for the violation (on behalf of the innocent victim) in an effort to deter future violators.
That would be the deterrent argument. As I said in my post, this automatically follows from protection of the individual, what you call "uphold the rights."

Retribution and retaliation flow automatically from the goal you've stated, i.e., there is no logical way to achieve protection of people and their rights which does not involve measures which are in some way punitive.

Retribution, retaliation and deterrent are not the primary motives: they are the secondary effects which flow from the primary responsibility of a criminal justice system--protecting the individual.
In cases such as petty theft, restitution might work, but surely more serious crimes require proportionately stronger retaliation.
I consider restitution an important component of justice and of rehabilitation, but as a practical matter criminals are not usually very productive individuals, and the amount of actual wealth they can generate to compensate their victims is quite limited.

Only if a criminal is rehabilitated do they become very productive.
My essential point though, is that none of the options given in the poll are in themselves the goal of criminal justice; but are really means to, or aspects of, that goal.
That was more of less the point of my post as well.

Nathan Hawking


 


Post 49

Tuesday, June 7, 2005 - 5:15amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
It was interesting to see the responses. It doesn't surprise me that Objectivists have substantial disagreements on restitution vs retribution - just like other libertarians do. It was actually surprising to me to see as many supporters of primacy of deterrence or rehabilitation as there were.


Post to this threadBack one pagePage 0Page 1Page 2


User ID Password or create a free account.