RoR: Forum

Michael,

Post 41

Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 8:56pm

If you can only find it, there is a reason for everything. I thought we all knew that! But no.

"why should we partake of life?"
Rick asks, perhaps rhetorically

Not at all Ed, that question is the important one on my mind as this recent sideshow demonstrates.

Deciding to end your life is not something justifiable by whim, but by reason.

There is no possible justification for ending your life. Try me.

Sanction votes? - lol....... wondered how you even got the first atlas, but then remember it goes with 10, and is so easy to con jure ten.....

Cout 'em again old man, I'm catching you up. :)

Rick, laddie, the point has been missed, but I think not by me. I'll give you a hint: think metaPHOR and not metaPHYSICS.
Beyond that, I won't spoil the surprise

Your paint/life rap was a simILE actually Nathan, and thanks for the thought but if you've anything substantive to contribute that'll be more than enough of a surprise for me. I'm waiting.

2 rules to success in life:1. Don't tell people everything you know

And so instead of doing something useful you just bug the hell out of everyone that disagrees with you?

That's only the warm-up act (surely you don't think I take pleasure in it?), but it is something useful if I can make your ignorance bug you. If I had nothing better to offer than the Socrates routine would you really want it to stop as it was in Athens?

I can't seem to bring myself to argue on the side of someone who reminds me of the Cheshire cat

When you stop being the Cheshire cat's ears I'll stop being the Cheshire cat's smile.

According to my philosophy the first concern, having defined one's terms, is to find a reason to care. Philosophy, who needs it? Meaning of life, who cares?
While you and 9/10 others are content to be bogged in the funk anterior to recognising these questions as worthwhile, let alone condescending to answer them, my solutions are pearls before....fall on deaf ears. So, here we are.

Post 42

Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 10:10pm

Rick,

You are incomprehensibly irritating. You have taken a few comments, twisted their meanings, and assumed far too much.

Sarah

Post 43

Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 10:11pm

Rick,

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There is no possible justification for ending your life. Try me.
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Hmph! ... [Ed twiddling his thumbs] ... [Ed staring up and to the left] ... [Ed closing his eyes] ... [eyes wide open] Aha! ... I've GOT IT!

Okay Rick, here is the scenario (oh boy, this one's a doozie!):

IF you had an incurable mental disorder that left you fully conscious and rational BUT it left you wrought, every ... painstaking ... second, with exasperating mental anguish and despair ... THEN it would be rational to end your life. Hmph! ... [strutting around like a cocky rooster] ... [thinking: "yup, I took the old Rick-ster down this time! ... Boooyaaa!"]

Recap:
If our potential for peace of mind was somehow precluded -- then it would be rational to self-euthanize. The potential for peace of mind is a NECESSARY condition for life to have meaning and value for humans.

Ed

Post 44

Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 10:18pm

Rick,

I'm not sure what you are trying to say... It looks to me like you are just trying to argue for arguing's sake. You said: "my solutions are pearls before". What solutions?

Are you looking for some universal meaning to life that is given to us because of a property of reality? Where would that meaning come from? If it is an external meaning attributed to us by something else, why would we take the meaning as our own? I have bestowed upon you a meaning to your life. The meaning is: to worship yourself and happily work to your greatest potential.

"[You] are content to be bogged in the funk anterior to recognising these questions as worthwhile, let alone condescending to answer them" That doesn't make any sense.

All,
No more scrolling text. No more animated text. Thank you. : )

Post 45

Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 10:27pm

Oo, oo, oo ... I've got another one. Here is the situation:

You write your will. At the time of your writing, there is an outbreak of a special form of Mad Cow disease -- we'll call it Infuriated Cow disease, in order to hint at its gravity.

This disease has no cure or alleviation, and here is the kicker: The disease completely and invariably destroys the cerebrum (leaving vital breathing centers in the brain stem, etc. intact).

According to all that is known in neurobiology, what this means is that you would come back with a reptile brain -- capable of feeling, but not of thought (reptiles don't even hold grudges).

In THIS INSTANCE, it would be rational to prescribe in your will that, should you contract the thought-killing disease, then you wish to be euthanized.

Moo, damnit!!!

Ed

Post 46

Sunday, June 26, 2005 - 3:07am

Dean,- .

I'm not sure what you are trying to say... It looks to me like you are just trying to argue for arguing's sake.

No! I would never do that. But I am trying to hide my humble solution because I want you to feel your hunger and your need for such an answer. As yet there is none!

You said: "my solutions are pearls before". What solutions?
"[You] are content to be bogged in the funk anterior to recognising these questions as worthwhile, let alone condescending to answer them" That doesn't make any sense.

I'm saying that the first order of business is to accept we have a problem.
While 'the meaning of life' is dismissed out of hand, relegated to the realms of Kant, solipsism, subjectivism and the Nike logo it is entirely premature to answer this question that nobody cares about.

I'm selling eudiamonia and nobody is buying.

Are you looking for some universal meaning to life that is given to us because of a property of reality?

Yeah man.

Where would that meaning come from?

From our nature.

If it is an external meaning attributed to us by something else, why would we take the meaning as our own?

Because reason compels us to, as with all things. Why must this matter be different? Why can reason not unlock this door? Why is there no meaning to life? Why can't people admit that this is a legitimate inquiry?

Even if I didn't know the answer, the question would remain! And I would be embarased to be caught pretending otherwise, as I think Ms House has been.

I have bestowed upon you a meaning to your life.

Joel Catala's god already did that for me Dean, thanks anyway. But since mine is a non-deity based belief system I need a higher authority than you or Yahweh. I need reason. My claim is that we all need reason. Nobody's got one. Worse! Nobody in this Objectivist(!?) gathering even accepts reason as being applicable.

Movie posters, sure. Nike logo, okay. Solipsism- right'o. Subjectivism, fine. But a reason? No thankyou!

There is no possible justification for ending your life. Try me
an incurable mental disorder
Infuriated Cow disease

See Ed, when you say things like "I took the old Rick-ster down this time!" that it's your subconscious mind's way of telling you that you've made a great mistake. :)

But why do you want to choose death? Why consider? Why take action? Why raise the blade and make the final cut? Why ask why? What for?

These are the only sort of questions there are. The only answer that there is must be predicated on life. All your values are founded on life, the only way to dispute me is for your mouth to clamp up, your arguments to surrender, your brain to melt and for you to die. There can be no argument against life, because it is self-contradictory. Even as you reject life by your words or by your suicidal actions, you are accepting every living attribute you have. Anti-life is nothing but total self-contradiction. You may place yourself in risky situations, you may expect to die, but you must never intend to. While there is breath in you, you must fight to live.

It is the moral thing to do.

Post 47

Sunday, June 26, 2005 - 9:00am

What does it mean to be alive? To appreciate 'the moment'.

Post 48

Sunday, June 26, 2005 - 9:09am

Rick,

You assume I am not looking for the answer, or I think there is no question. You are wrong. You assume I have rejected reason in the matter. You are wrong.

Asserting that your permission is not a prerequisite for me to live is not an argumentum ad nike. You should try a few more exchanges before you presume to know what I am embarrassed by or what conclusions I have drawn.

Also, you need to work on your style. A lot. I don't remember insulting the other party being a part of the Socratic method.

Sarah

Post 49

Sunday, June 26, 2005 - 9:25am

It is possible to "appreciate" much more with the insights made possible by philosophical and scientific inquiry. What would be the point of philosophical and scientific pursuit if not to explore the meaning of life? Isn't that our human nature? Every day should bring new knowledge and a richer appreciation of life. But new knowledge doesn't come without work. Lazy people cannot know what they are missing. Unless life is "intuitively obvious to the most casual observer."

Post 50

Sunday, June 26, 2005 - 10:13am

Shame on you who say it is a meaningless question.

Since there is no world other than this, and we live finite lives, we want to know why we exist, whether there is a higher purpose, some grand design, some reason outside ourselves for our being--since the fact of our existence was determined completely before our existence as individuals (horny parents).

If you answer anything other than in a way that reflects your understanding that the meaning of (your) life is somehow beyond or outside your life, then you are, on some level, a mystic.

While it is true that existents exist and we can perceive and define them, and that A is A (a thing is what it is and is no other), that really misses the poit of the query 'What is the meaning of life?'

Your life is yours, your life is short, and success or failure depends on how well you can accept the reality for what it is, integrate concepts, and conform your conduct to reality. Your capacities and limitations are part of reality. Your goals to judge success or failure are your own. Life is motion, struggle, success. Death is paralysis and stillness. Engage life, choose and acheieve your goals, enjoy yourself, and appreciate and help those who share your values. You WILL grow old and die, if you are lucky (and if unlucky, you will die young). So make the most of it.

That's pretty much it.

Post 51

Sunday, June 26, 2005 - 10:15am

" I don't remember insulting the other party being a part of the Socratic method."

I guess you never went to law school...

Post 52

Sunday, June 26, 2005 - 2:46am

Ed,

I agree with you. The meaning of life is growing along with human being until the last day.

Yang

Post 53

Sunday, June 26, 2005 - 3:01am

Rob,
----------------------
It's a good question. The meaning of meaning maybe the purpose of life itself.

Yang

Post 54

Sunday, June 26, 2005 - 10:35am

The meaning of life is knowledge.
Knowledge is the meaning of life.
dc

Post 55

Sunday, June 26, 2005 - 4:55pm

Thanks for speaking up Yang.

Either folks don't think an answer exists, or they (ahem, Rick) speak of an answer -- without precisely speaking of it.
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Rick,
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I'm selling eudiamonia and nobody is buying.
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Not true! Hell, I am buying 2 cases of it ("growth" and "happiness")!

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From our nature.
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Rick?! That would've been MY answer (to Dean) also. Are you sure that we have different answers concerning this question, Rick?

Why don't you just come out with an answer precise enough to be accurate, but not so precise that it undercuts a generalization to H. sapiens (as I successfully have)?

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My claim is that we all need reason. Nobody's got one. Worse! Nobody in this Objectivist(!?) gathering even accepts reason as being applicable.
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Temper, temper, Rick-ster (lest you earn yourself the name T-Rick-ster). I got reason, and A reason. I, I, I.

If you were so inclined, I'd definitely accept an apology from you for misrepresenting me with the term "Nobody" -- one involving an appeal to hasty generalization, on your part.

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But why do you want to choose death?
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Rick, keeping context, and critically reducing the examples which I gave (down to their fundamental principles) -- you will find that the death-choices both involved a loss of the inherent benefits of humanity (no man qua man, anymore). The loss was already there -- in the spirit -- and, for man, the material follows in lock-step with the spirit. The "man" had already died -- despite the continuation of his flesh.

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There can be no argument against life ...
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This needs to be more precise: There can no argument against a potentially-growing human spirit.

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While there is breath in you, you must fight to live.
It is the moral thing to do.
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And I (just above) have just given the precise reason for this statement's truth. Do you, or do you not, agree with my answer (updated) that:

The meaning of (human) life is psycho-spiritual growth (along with the happiness which necessarily tracks this growth -- in all humans).

???

Ed
(Edited by Ed Thompson
on 6/26, 4:56pm)

(Edited by Ed Thompson
on 6/26, 4:58pm)

(Edited by Ed Thompson
on 6/26, 5:00pm)

Post 56

Monday, June 27, 2005 - 2:49am

Ed,

Sometimes I'm really thick. Really, really thick.

I have often wondered at the patience you display, especially in really long posts that are exercises in futility. I forgot that you're the Fitness Leader.

You like to do reps!

//;-)

Michael

(btw - Regarding that other post ["Don't encourage him"] that I don't remember where is, yes my imitation was meant to be the highest form of flattery - that was a damn funny remark - one of the funniest on Solo! That's why I mentioned you as source, and I always will.)

Post 57

Monday, June 27, 2005 - 3:52am

"What is the meaning of life"

If "meaning" means "definition", I think that life can be defined as purposeful growth.

If "meaning" means "aim" or "goal", then should discuss whether life, per se, has an objective purpose or not. Objectivism answers the second.

I think that life, per se, has an ultimate purpose: to live towards personal and human completeness.

Best wishes,

Joel Catal�

(Edited by Joel Catal� on 6/27, 8:23am)

Post 58

Monday, June 27, 2005 - 8:57am

Michael, you are more correct than you thought!

The key reason I often engage others so persistently (and often on their own grounds) is in order to initiate this type of growth that I've been harping about (firstly in myself; but possibly in others, too) -- and it can also be a "fun" process (as you, of all folks, should know!); which is a good second reason to do it.

Whether I'm conjuring up living room ponies or engaging in the mental gymnastics associated with double-reverse psychologizing metadiscussion -- my mind is getting a workout.

I think it was Kahlil Gibran who said something like the following:

Organs grow in response to necessity; therefore, increase your necessity.

caveat: These "heavy workouts" need to be approached cautiously. Too much, too soon -- my result in "overtraining syndrome" or "dain bramage!" {:-/}

p.s. thanks for the acknowledgment, Michael

Ed

Post 59

Monday, June 27, 2005 - 1:54pm