RoR: Forum

I voted "rarely." I have spoken about Objectivist topics in various Toastmasters speeches but those do not involve a dialogue. I have also spoken about Objectivism to various humanist and freethought groups with mixed responses during the subsequent discussions. These responses ranged from warm appreciation to howling hostility.

My patience with one-on-one discussions with coworkers over the years has eroded considerably, especially in the area of religion. "But ... but ... but ..." and other annoying interruptions grate my nerves. The irrational desire that A be non-A, coming from engineers of all people, annoys me to no end.

I am going to pull a Peter Schwartz here and say, "Let them come to us." That makes more effective use of my time.

Post 1

Thursday, December 8, 2005 - 8:09am

Then you better make your path be of gold to have them beat to your door...

[or you'd rather no beating at all?]

(Edited by robert malcom on 12/08, 8:10am)

Post 2

Thursday, December 8, 2005 - 8:26am

As Club Coordinator, I can tell you that that is the plan, Robert. Stay tuned.

Post 3

Thursday, December 8, 2005 - 5:16pm

I voted every day. Every other day is probably more accurate, but once a week is too infrequent. I talk to co-workers, friends, and random people I meet here and there. Usually its about some kind of injustice I see, or something that could work better if government kept its thieving hands off.

Post 4

Thursday, December 8, 2005 - 5:46pm

I also voted every day. For much the same reason, I believe, that Dean did.

I'm like most people... opinionated. I'm certainly not hesitant to offer my ideas, particularly when I find those presented to me are irrational.
But, I don't often feel the need to explain myself, and many people think I'm strange. Those who know me better call me logical. And those who know I'm an objectivist I call friends.

Post 5

Thursday, December 8, 2005 - 5:49pm

I like to use the Socratic method of questioning someone about their ideas.

Ethan

Post 6

Friday, December 9, 2005 - 8:04am

Ethan, I think the Socratic method coupled with the leading of a good life is the best we can hope for. It's one thing to get a person to question (and doubt) their premises. It's quite another to show them a model that's working.

Post 7

Friday, December 9, 2005 - 8:20am

Hi Lance,

I agree! I enjoy talking about ideas with others and hope that what I say rubs off on them. I also think it's of critical importance to have a place where those interested in learning more can go to get information easily, and a place that provides exposure to Objectivist ideas and principles to the general public. In the end, people must make up their own minds, if something I do or say helps them to make better choices, then that's a good thing in my mind.

Ethan

(Edited by Ethan Dawe on 12/09, 8:27am)

Post 8

Friday, December 9, 2005 - 8:54am

One of the projects I am considering developing for 2006 is an introductory course in practical reasoning for the general public. The course content would aim at, say, a time frame of two hours per week for six weeks. This would be an interactive workshop in which participants take turns explaining the concepts in a sort of roundtable format. The bulk of the course would focus on understanding and identifying informal fallacies in every day language as outlined in An Introductory Logic.

The Local Clubs would host these sessions at their discretion.

Nominal costs for the course might run around $25 to cover costs of materials, etc. The sales pitch to draw people to learn would be of the "empowering" variety, e.g., "Learn how to spot nonsense from salesmen and relatives and never let them take advantage of you again!"

This is all very sketchy at the moment and I will need help developing something worthwhile. Of course, if such a course already exists, please tell us now. The closest I have seen are these Building Your Thinking Power presentations:

http://www.toastmasters.org/store/item.asp?SKU=253

http://www.toastmasters.org/store/item.asp?SKU=254

Post 9

Friday, December 9, 2005 - 9:50am

Ethan,

I like to Socratic method too. A problem I've run into, however, is that most people reach a point where they haven't questioned their beliefs and thoughts beyond that and give me something like, "Oh, I'm not smart enough to think about that kind of stuff." More often than not, they are smart enough but they're scared. These are the people that have a damn good chance of "turning" but I still haven't figured out how to nudge them past their fears. Any thoughts?

Sarah

Post 10

Friday, December 9, 2005 - 9:53am

Sarah,

Evasion is at the heart of most of the problems in the world today. You can't make people think. The best you can do is to ask them, "why do you beleive that?"

Ethan

Post 11

Friday, December 9, 2005 - 10:01am

"Because I was taught that..." is the usual response............
[the usual - 'learned from authority' notion]

(Edited by robert malcom on 12/09, 10:02am)

Post 12

Friday, December 9, 2005 - 10:53am

At least once a week I talk to someone about objectivist principles; self ownership, capitalism, reality is what it is and is knowable. I usually mention Ayn Rand. I do not think people necessarily evade or are "scared" of ideas. They are not familiar with philosophical buzzwords because they don't need to be in their lives. They do not trust "experts". Take any "expert" and you will find another one with exactly the opposite idea. People do not think anyone can know ABSOLUTELY FOR SURE just about anything. They know there are holes in their knowledge but they also know everyone else (including you) are in exactly the same state. They will not easily exchange what they "know" for what you "know". They assume you are self interested and on an ego trip. They will not spend a lot of energy on what they perceive will gain them very little. Most people are very utilitarian. They will study what helps them do their job better, whatever it is, they will not care much about what little they can do to "change the world".

My wife, for instance, has read Ayn Rand: Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead, maybe Anthem. She liked them. But she thinks I worry excessively about what I can do nothing about and thinks it would be nice if I thought more about what I could do around the house. She is a very hard worker, at home and at her job [she is an office manager at a small company and has a business degree]. She mainly thinks people should mind their own business. She is irritated with conversations that include words that have to be looked up in a philosophical dictionary. If you can't speak plainly she thinks you are full of shit. I don't think in a million years I could get her to go to a objectivist convention of any kind. She'd rather work in her garden. I have an immense amount of love and admiration for her and frankly I wouldn't try to change her.
(Edited by Mike Erickson
on 12/09, 10:55am)

Post 13

Friday, December 9, 2005 - 11:01am

Mike, you said:

I do not think people necessarily evade or are "scared" of ideas.

I wasn't speaking of evading ideas, though that was probably unclear from the context of my reply to Sarah. I was talking about people evading reality. It seems many people are caught up in range of the moment lives and essentially drift from personal disaster to disaster. They live life in a reactive mode rather than a proactive one. I certainly used to. Changing that has allowed me to lead a much much much happier and productive life.

Ethan

(Edited by Ethan Dawe on 12/09, 11:05am)

Post 14

Friday, December 9, 2005 - 2:51pm

That's because y'all have always been taught not to make plans for the future, as it is too indeterminable - so, live for the day, and kinda 'feel' your way to tomorrows...
[one of the things so liked about Rand's writings - showing how truly inhuman that actually is]

Post 15

Friday, December 9, 2005 - 8:50pm

Hi Ethan,

"I was talking about people evading reality. It seems many people are caught up in range of the moment lives and essentially drift from personal disaster to disaster. They live life in a reactive mode rather than a proactive one."

Well, some people do do that. But I don't think most people do. Not the people I work with and hang out with. An awful lot of useful work gets done in the world considering 99.9% of people are NOT objectivists. I'd concentrate on trying to have reasonable conversations with reasonable people. I'd hand one of Nathaniels books to someone who was drifting from "disaster to disaster".

Congrats on being the new RoR editor by the way.

Post 16

Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 4:21am