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Post 40

Tuesday, December 1, 2009 - 9:59pmSanction this postReply
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From Ayn Rand Answers, pp 103-104

Now, I don't care to discuss the alleged complaints American Indians have against this country. I believe, with good reason, the most unsympathetic Hollywood portrayal of Indians and what they did to the white man. They had no right to a country merely because they were born here and then acted like savages. The white man did not
conquer this country. And you're a racist if you object, because it means you believe that certain men are entitled to something because of their race. You believe that if someone is born in a magnificent country and doesn't know what to do with it, he still has a property right to it. He does not. Since the Indians did not have the concept of property or property rights--they didn't have a settled society, they had predominantly nomadic tribal "cultures"--they didn't have rights to the land, and there was no reason for anyone to grant them rights that they had not conceived of and were not using. It's wrong to attack a country that respects (or even tries to respect) individual rights. If you do, you're an aggressor and are morally wrong. But if a "country" does not protect rights--if a group of tribesmen are the slaves of their tribal chief--why should you respect the "rights" that they don't have or respect? The same is true for a dictatorship. The citizens in it have individual rights, but the country has no rights and so anyone has the right to invade it, because rights are not recognized in that country; and no individual or country can have its cake and eat it too--that is, you can't claim one should respect the "rights" of Indians, when they had no concept of rights and no respect for rights. But let's suppose they were all beautifully innocent savages--which they certainly were not. What were they fighting for, in opposing the white man on this continent? For their wish to continue a primitive existence; for their "right" to keep part of the earth untouched--to keep everybody out so they could live like animals or cavemen. Any European who brought with him an element of civilization had the right to take over this continent, and it's great that some of them did. The racist Indians today--those who condemn America--do not respect individual rights.

(The statement is from the West Point Q&A, 1974, the text is cut and pasted from wikiquotes which I believe is largely accurate to the published text.)

This is perhaps Rand's most problematic public statement. She doesn't distinguish clearly between the moral and the political, the individual and the collective. The statement is incredibly naive in its broadness. For example, did the US have the right to unilaterally abrogate treaties which Indian Tribes made with it in good faith? Her view of "Indians" seems to be limited to the stereotype of warrior plains tribes that rode horses and scalped people. That was limited mainly to plains Indians (mostly Sioux and Apache) who, ironically, learned those crafts (definitely horseback raiding, possibly scalping) from Europeans. Settled agriculture was the most widespread way of native life south of Canada and east of the plains. The Indians did not fence the land since they did not have livestock, not because they did not recognize ownership. They hardly lived as "animals or cavemen."

Before jumping on Rand you have to look at this quote in context. It was off the cuff, unrehearsed and unedited. Rand's personal life and health were not at their best. Marxist and anti-White native movements were in the news. The Pine Ridge Reservation shootings would occur the following year. But Rand does not qualify her statements or say that she does not have enough knowledge to make an informed statement.

I think the question is open as to whether she was denying the political rights of individuals or political entities (tribes) based upon what ideas they supposedly lacked.



This map does not reflect the settled lifestyle of west coast Salmon and Acorn harvesters who were settled and whose population density and wealth rivaled that of old-world agriculturalists.


Post 41

Tuesday, December 1, 2009 - 10:17pmSanction this postReply
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My take, Jon, was that Laure thinks the question is so stupid as not to merit being asked. I had just finished reading Ann Heller's fascinating bio when I posted the question. I think the number of "no" answers and Rand's own pronouncements show that in a bad mood, many Objectivists do act as if a person's rights, moral or otherwise, depend on what beliefs or motives are attributed to him.

What, I have to ask, is the harm in asking a question to which everyone supposedly knows the answer? Especially when they obviously don't! The lack of appreciation for the fundamentality of happiness was, of course, one of the reasons for my posting the subsequent poll that so many have found so vexing.

I am also entertained by the Catholic answer to their version of this question. Catholics hold that Christ's sacrifice on the cross redeems those who come to him through the Church. That is, the Church is the real deal and is effective because it does do his will in the world. Current Catholic teaching does not deny that non-believers (who do not actively separate themselves from God) may be saved by His grace.

Post 42

Friday, December 11, 2009 - 8:29amSanction this postReply
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Rand says you have to earn the right to hold yourself as your own highest value:

“The virtue of Pride can best be described by the term: ‘moral ambitiousness’. It means that one must earn the right to hold oneself as one’s own highest value by achieving one’s own moral perfection—which one achieves by never accepting any code of irrational virtues impossible to practice and by never failing to practice the virtues one knows to be rational—by never accepting an unearned guilt and never earning any, or, if one has earned it, never leaving it uncorrected . . . .” (27)

(This is copied from a post by S Boydstun to SoloP.)

Post 43

Friday, December 11, 2009 - 6:26pmSanction this postReply
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I think her statement is confused.

How many times may one earn guilt, correct what one has done wrong and continue speaking of “one’s own moral perfection”?

Only once in a while? Fairly often as long as there are no biggies?

If one has earned guilt, (not an error of knowledge but a moral wrong) and he can “correct” it and we should still call him morally perfect — then what about the guy who doesn’t ever earn any guilt, never commits any moral wrongs? Is he plain old morally perfect, too, like the first one?


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Post 44

Friday, December 11, 2009 - 6:51pmSanction this postReply
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The only way I can make sense of "perfection" is as a process. Like I'm perfecting my understanding of something, or perfecting my ability to do something. It just doesn't make sense to me as measurement of one's accomplishment - it is like something whose measure is infinity.

For me, moral perfection, is a practice and it can be more or less successful - you can attain higher levels of virtue or fall to lower levels of virtue. Moral perfection is the practice of focusing more effectively, and/or more intensely on the moral dimension of life.

Post 45

Saturday, December 12, 2009 - 10:54amSanction this postReply
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During one of her two Phil Donahue appearances, Rand was asked by an audience member if she considered herself to be a morally perfect being. Rand replied that she does not think of herself in such terms, and then gave a brief outline of morality being about straightening yourself out with reality, getting rid of your contradictions, etc.

In other words, just what Steve just said.

Ed


Post 46

Saturday, December 12, 2009 - 3:19pmSanction this postReply
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So ‘yes’ to the last question in post 43?

Post 47

Saturday, December 12, 2009 - 4:25pmSanction this postReply
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Jon,

Yes, with the caveat that what you postulate ...

... the guy who doesn’t ever earn any guilt, never commits any moral wrongs?
... is sort of like postulating a counter-factual. For instance, have you, Jon, ever met someone who never earned any guilt or committed any wrong? There's a potential for communication breakdown if you start talking about things that don't necessarily exist (e.g., round squares, absolutely perfect humans, etc.) -- and then you use them as a standard

Ed


Post 48

Saturday, December 12, 2009 - 4:56pmSanction this postReply
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OK, ‘yes’ with the caveat that men who never commit any moral wrongs don't necessarily exist. That is, yes, both men are “morally perfect”—the one who commits wrongs and corrects them and the one who never commits any wrongs.

Next question regards the man who commits wrongs, but only small ones and only once in a while, as opposed the one who commits well, you know, bigger wrongs and more of them. The latter makes a large effort, every time, to correct what he has done, that’s for sure. Are they both morally perfect? They seem to qualify by her statement. What do you think?


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Post 49

Saturday, December 12, 2009 - 7:42pmSanction this postReply
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Jon,

***********
Are they both morally perfect? They seem to qualify by her statement. What do you think?
***********

No, the guy who commits the bigger and the more repeated wrongs is less morally perfect. The reason that this is so is because the bigger, more repeated wrongs are evidence of a lack of moral growth on his part.

The issue at hand, to be clear, is not about avoiding being wrong (in the first place), it's about avoiding the growth that being wrong makes possible. Everyone's been wrong about something. It's how we deal with that that differentiates us morally.

Rand said something wise like this when she was asked (on Phil Donahue) if she views herself as a morally perfect being.

Ed
(Edited by Ed Thompson on 12/12, 7:43pm)


Post 50

Saturday, December 12, 2009 - 8:41pmSanction this postReply
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"If one has earned guilt, (not an error of knowledge but a moral wrong) and he can “correct” it and we should still call him morally perfect — then what about the guy who doesn’t ever earn any guilt, never commits any moral wrongs? Is he plain old morally perfect, too, like the first one?"

Well, Mrs. Jones, we have two baby sitters available. They are both rated perfect in customer satisfaction. Betsy just does her job, to the tee, no complaints ever. Mary lets herself get distracted, and occasionally scalds the little ones in the bath. But she rushes the wee ones to the hospital, pays for their care out of pocket, stays to apply the ointment and soothe the blisters. On one occasion she even donated the necessary skin graft. She brings pastries enough for the kids, the families and the neighbors, for weeks on end. For little Bobby-Joe she built an extension on the house and moved in until the corneal grafts took hold. For Susan she bought a pony, which she feeds and grooms and stables. Every one of her victims comes away from his experience not only as good as new, but even better for the experience, which she always more than makes up for. Now which one will you be asking for?


Post 51

Sunday, December 13, 2009 - 12:14pmSanction this postReply
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It’s so hard to pick, Ted. Betsy sounds good, but boring. Mary sounds dangerous but there’s something to be said for never leaving errors uncorrected. They’re both babysittingly perfect, obviously, albeit one less so than the other. I wish I could have the stability of Betsy with the excitement of Mary. I can’t decide.

Post 52

Sunday, December 13, 2009 - 2:21pmSanction this postReply
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She's not supposed to be babysitting YOU, Jon.... ;-)

Post 53

Sunday, December 13, 2009 - 5:04pmSanction this postReply
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At the end of the day, who is prouder and happier, Betsy or Mary?

Post 54

Sunday, December 13, 2009 - 5:42pmSanction this postReply
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Ed:
more repeated wrongs are evidence of a lack of moral growth


Good point

Post 55

Sunday, December 13, 2009 - 7:10pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,

I had previously assumed that there was morally perfect and not morally perfect. Honestly, I was unprepared for “less morally perfect.”

You seem to be saying that repeating the same type of moral failure shows a failure to get serious about one’s flaws, which is a failing in itself that brings the actor from morally perfect to less morally perfect. Is this correct?


Post 56

Sunday, December 13, 2009 - 8:18pmSanction this postReply
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Jon,

I wish I could have the stability of Betsy with the excitement of Mary. I can’t decide.
Geezus, Jon. You sound like the young female torn between the scholastic, sweater-wearing, cake-eater with the rich parents and the guaranteed job in his dad's billion-dollar company -- and the altogether unkempt, tatoo'd, leather-wearing, motorcycle-riding, dropout, tough guy.

Ed



Post 57

Sunday, December 13, 2009 - 8:28pmSanction this postReply
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Jon,

You seem to be saying that repeating the same type of moral failure shows a failure to get serious about one’s flaws, which is a failing in itself that brings the actor from morally perfect to less morally perfect. Is this correct?
Yes, and I am of the belief that I couldn't have said it better myself.

One thing that springs up in my mind as I analyze the hell out of these 3 lines of yours, though, is that there is a prior presumption of moral perfection (as you go from being perfect to being less perfect). I admit I haven't thought about it. Do we start out morally perfect and then slip, or is moral perfection something someone has got to dig into and earn from the get-go -- starting from more or less a blank moral slate.

On this I would venture to say that I'm a blank-slater. Therefore, the interesting case ensues wherein someone at some young age doesn't have any moral flaws (yet), but where they -- in spite of being flawless -- still aren't morally perfect; because they haven't been "moral" long enough to deal with flaws or error. Interesting debate.

Ed
[and thanks for the kudos, John A.]

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 12/13, 8:30pm)


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